Jacked Up SPS prices

[Mattrg02]

I honestly don't care what the profit is as long as it is rightfully earned. A PC rainbow being sold as a MattG "Unicorn barbarian" for $200 per 1/8in is where I get my pants in a wad.

 

[Anirban]

Whoa...what a discussion????
By the way I have a common question for all. How many of you actually remember each frags name (fancy name) by heart?

 

[Servillius]

I understand making a little cash or profit don't get me wrong. Does this scenario "help" with equipment and up keep? Let's say for argument sake someone bought a colony for $200, put it under good lighting and slapped a fancy name on it. Let's also add that this small colony has about 30 tips and they stick a price tag of $150 and call it "NEW!!"
You mean to tell me that making $4500 + off of a $200 colony that will regrow isn't robbery? That's taking advantage of the hobbyist and to me takes the fun out of it. I find it comical seeing these big sellers with their "brand name" attached to frags. To me that screams 1 or 2 things here... someone is cherry picking to make money or they are really good at selling typical things under really fancy lighting. Anyone can color up a colony but by the time we (the average joe) gets them, they have already been picked through so someone can frag out the nice pieces and make big bucks.

Let me reiterate I absolutely do not condone or care to defend fraud. To the extent folks are saying there are vendors perpetrating fraud on unwary buyers, I completely agree those vendors need to be called out and run off. I simply don’t think it’s fair to conflate making a lot of profit on a good piece with fraud.

I’ve said before we absolutely have a problem in the hobby that is inherent in the hobby (not really our fault), but that we should be looking at fixing. There is no standard by which we can judge the authenticity of a product. If we were serious about this, we’d be working with professionals to establish standards. I have no idea if DNA is an option. Certainly we could establish lab standards for an aquarium environment, lighting, photography, colorimitry, etc. by which a given coral clone is identified, named and certified. The truth though is this would increase, possibly dramatically, the price of some corals. It would also drive down the price on the wanabes.

Brand names are a mixed bag. Unwary shoppers can end up paying for a fashion when they think they’re paying for quality. On the other hand, branding helps many of us return to the best sellers time and again and get great quality as a result. Same answer. If we’re serious about this we should be doing everything we can to highlight the difference and share that information.

What I never want us to do is paint a broad brush where we declare neferious motives to honest businesspeople just because we don’t like their pricing.

 

[Adam10045]

So don't buy it, and not everyone can color up a colony. Did you purchase the anemone in your avatar?

I still buy them because I like high end corals. It's just a shame they rarely make it to the buyers market in one piece and not inflated. And yes

 

[Mattrg02]

While DNA testing is probably a bit to far, we COULD start a list, with pictures, of common corals for everyone to see BEFORE they buy. Seeing a sellers crazy offering and then cross referencing this repository of corals might reveal a seller that has renamed, as well as touched up, a common coral.

I see a lot of people, here of all places, "re-release" common corals with obvious signs of touch up. "Now introducing the Red Quark acro, by myself, Joe Dork". Next comes the sales thread where they are $200 for half inch. After that, I see people start grow out threads and their corals NEVER look like the "original".

This seems to be the new trend.

Seeing a home wrecker go for $500 doesn't bother me because I don't see much that compares. My WD, God rest its soul, was pretty unique and was incredibly bright. While I didn't pay anywhere NEAR what I see them go for, I was very impressed by it.

 

[tankstudy]

My tank is mixed with single digit pieces to triple digit pieces.

I only buy what looks good under my current color spectrum which is currently set at 20k. In the past, I only bought what was good for a 12k spectrum tank, yes, there are corals that look quite pretty under just 12k.

Name or No name makes no difference for me.

 

[BoomCorals]

It's wild to me that anyone would re-name a GARF bonsai. That is one of the truly unique corals, where the name actually implies something meaningful; i.e. hardy, colorful and will grow like crazy. Sad.



No, that's not robbery. That's capitalism. Same way charging $500 for a pair of jeans isn't robbery because it only contains $2 worth of cotton. Things are worth what people will pay for them.

Being honest, that one baffles me too. The garf bonsai is iconic. I will always call it the garf bonsai.

 

[BoomCorals]

I honestly don't care what the profit is as long as it is rightfully earned. A PC rainbow being sold as a MattG "Unicorn barbarian" for $200 per 1/8in is where I get my pants in a wad.

Ditto, I just call it PC rainbow. And frags are south of fifty bucks.

While DNA testing is probably a bit to far, we COULD start a list, with pictures, of common corals for everyone to see BEFORE they buy. Seeing a sellers crazy offering and then cross referencing this repository of corals might reveal a seller that has renamed, as well as touched up, a common coral.

That's actually a pretty good idea. A repository of corals by name with pictures. Similar to zoabrary/zoaid for zoas. Does such a thing exist?

 

[Mattrg02]

Being honest, that one baffles me too. The garf bonsai is iconic. I will always call it the garf bonsai.

Not me! Mwhahahhah!

Blueberry rainbow elk acro. $200 for a generous, half inch!

 

[Mattrg02]

Ditto, I just call it PC rainbow. And frags are south of fifty bucks.

That's actually a pretty good idea. A repository of corals by name with pictures. Similar to zoabrary/zoaid for zoas. Does such a thing exist?

Pretty sure there is one for zoas (zoaid.com maybe?), but not sps corals.

 

[Steven Garland]

Agreed. No name equals no sale.

I can slightly disagree with that,with the quality product you have,I would surely buy a bunch of stuff that had no names.

When I walk into Living Reef Orlando,and I check their sps out,they have TONS of pieces that arent labeled with names,but are $10,$20 and are just as nice as some of the ones with fancy dancy names lol.

 

[Mattrg02]

I can slightly disagree with that,with the quality product you have,I would surely buy a bunch of stuff that had no names.

When I walk into Living Reef Orlando,and I check their sps out,they have TONS of pieces that arent labeled with names,but are $10,$20 and are just as nice as some of the ones with fancy dancy names lol.

No name, no BIG sale. I'd buy a coral with no name, but not going to spend much since I can't cross reference it to anything. I'll give any brightly colored frag a chance for $20.

 

[JaimeAdams]

So I work at a small local saltwater only aquarium store. We do not sell online. It is the owner and me and no other employee costs. I work 6 days a week and my hourly wages are nothing great. I get by, but most importantly my job is super laid back and I get my stuff for my hobby at cost. That being said. It costs my boss almost $5,000.00 a month just to pay me and pay the bills. That is before he puts a penny into his pocket. So right now we are selling clownfish for $12, all of our Acro frags are $15. How many $15 frags do you think we need to sell in a month to keep the business turning a profit. There is retail space rent, taxes, a big electric bill, water, sewage, insurance, employee wages. What is fair profit? If I pay $5 for a clownfish is $12 fair? If I order a box of Fiji across and pay $30 per mini colony and get 5 frags off of it, can I sell them for $10, $20, $40? So I get 20 mini colonies in the box, half of them are going to just going to be blah across, 5 of them might melt when I stick them in the tank, 4 might be nice, I might get lucky and get 1 special colony, can I then try to make my $600 back from that one mini colony or do I have to make my money back over 6 months of trying to re-color the other 19 mini colonies and then sit on them for 6 months until someone wants a green Acro for $15? Mind you I still need to be making 5 grand on top of whatever I put out there for livestock. What about when half the box is dead when it arrives? What about when customs holds up the shipment and the whole thing is dead days later when they release it? These things happen, they really do, just not aspects of the trade that everyone sees.

You local guy slinging frags out of his basement doesn't even have a business license let alone any of the over head. He has no commercial realestate lease, no employees other than maybe his wife or kid, no insurance, none of it. Maybe you can say the added expense of plumping a frag tank into his system, maybe an extra $100 a month to be generous. So he is saving $4,900 a month over the small store that I work. I would find it more appropriate to blame each other the hobbyist than a coral vendor. If the marketplace threads were filled with nice corals for cheap it might have more of an impact on vendors, Let me go check, nope bounce mushrooms still $500... To be fair there are some people who do sell frags cheap, but they are the exception.


I agree that prices are just getting higher and higher and the frags smaller and smaller. I don't like some of the big names places selling the same frag for 3 times the price because they stick their name in front of it. Some people do though. I have a buddy who will only buy stuff from WWC. He refuses to buy the same piece from a fellow hobbyist at a swap of the same coral. He wants his "lineage" as he puts it. I guess it is the same why people pay big money for a dog from a certain breeder when the breeder 20 miles down the road has the same breed that are just as nice. As long as people are willing to pay the prices vendors will keep asking the prices.

 

[Mattrg02]

So I work at a small local saltwater only aquarium store. We do not sell online. It is the owner and me and no other employee costs. I work 6 days a week and my hourly wages are nothing great. I get by, but most importantly my job is super laid back and I get my stuff for my hobby at cost. That being said. It costs my boss almost $5,000.00 a month just to pay me and pay the bills. That is before he puts a penny into his pocket. So right now we are selling clownfish for $12, all of our Acro frags are $15. How many $15 frags do you think we need to sell in a month to keep the business turning a profit. There is retail space rent, taxes, a big electric bill, water, sewage, insurance, employee wages. What is fair profit? If I pay $5 for a clownfish is $12 fair? If I order a box of Fiji across and pay $30 per mini colony and get 5 frags off of it, can I sell them for $10, $20, $40? So I get 20 mini colonies in the box, half of them are going to just going to be blah across, 5 of them might melt when I stick them in the tank, 4 might be nice, I might get lucky and get 1 special colony, can I then try to make my $600 back from that one mini colony or do I have to make my money back over 6 months of trying to re-color the other 19 mini colonies and then sit on them for 6 months until someone wants a green Acro for $15? Mind you I still need to be making 5 grand on top of whatever I put out there for livestock. What about when half the box is dead when it arrives? What about when customs holds up the shipment and the whole thing is dead days later when they release it? These things happen, they really do, just not aspects of the trade that everyone sees.

You local guy slinging frags out of his basement doesn't even have a business license let alone any of the over head. He has no commercial realestate lease, no employees other than maybe his wife or kid, no insurance, none of it. Maybe you can say the added expense of plumping a frag tank into his system, maybe an extra $100 a month to be generous. So he is saving $4,900 a month over the small store that I work. I would find it more appropriate to blame each other the hobbyist than a coral vendor. If the marketplace threads were filled with nice corals for cheap it might have more of an impact on vendors, Let me go check, nope bounce mushrooms still $500... To be fair there are some people who do sell frags cheap, but they are the exception.


I agree that prices are just getting higher and higher and the frags smaller and smaller. I don't like some of the big names places selling the same frag for 3 times the price because they stick their name in front of it. Some people do though. I have a buddy who will only buy stuff from WWC. He refuses to buy the same piece from a fellow hobbyist at a swap of the same coral. He wants his "lineage" as he puts it. I guess it is the same why people pay big money for a dog from a certain breeder when the breeder 20 miles down the road has the same breed that are just as nice. As long as people are willing to pay the prices vendors will keep asking the prices.

Ever seen your boss do his taxes? I'm betting he has a lot of deductions.

 

[Mandelstam]

You local guy slinging frags out of his basement doesn't even have a business license let alone any of the over head. He has no commercial realestate lease, no employees other than maybe his wife or kid, no insurance, none of it. Maybe you can say the added expense of plumping a frag tank into his system, maybe an extra $100 a month to be generous. So he is saving $4,900 a month over the small store that I work. I would find it more appropriate to blame each other the hobbyist than a coral vendor. If the marketplace threads were filled with nice corals for cheap it might have more of an impact on vendors, Let me go check, nope bounce mushrooms still $500... To be fair there are some people who do sell frags cheap, but they are the exception.

So much this!!

If I ever were to spend $500 on one little frag I would buy it from a genuine business trying to make a living rather than from another hobbyist just trying to cover some of the expenses of her expensive HOBBY. For us hobbyists it is a hobby. For the lfs it's a matter of being able to pay the bills every month.

 

[mannyhernz]

People won't buy them without a name. No joke.

I think those are the reefers that are "trendy" me myself? I buy what pleases my eye. If the coral I like has a "name" then I think it's a plus just so I can look for more pics of it on google. But other than that, I try to purchase Mari-cultured or wild pieces. That's a little more challenging for me personally.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I am not a fan of high priced collectors items when its just a marketing ploy because it takes the new hobbyist from joining. I understand it and its fine that it exist but the problem is frags tend to get smaller and prices keep going up. Not to mention wild colonies prices go up aswell as collecting and importing IMO should command a higher price than a 1/2" frag that grew in a month!. Now if one sold a SPS frag trained to be resistant to RTN, bleaching, and high swings in ALK - id pay more than $200 a frag Someday I'll be that vendor!!

 

[derek yoonie]

Yea I just walked out and said I wasn’t paying 200 bucks for a wild colony frag that I paid 30 bucks for 2 weeks ago. I was very quite and tried to just get out but he pretty much chased me out calling me names then sending me texts calling me a loser. After all this happened I reached out to some people from my local club and they all stated he was a rip-off artists and did this to a lot of people.

dang man calling u a loser lol.

 

[oldpaddy]

I worked for a guy whose prices seemed to depend on his mood.
That bothered me.

 

[BoomCorals]

I think those are the reefers that are "trendy" me myself? I buy what pleases my eye. If the coral I like has a "name" then I think it's a plus just so I can look for more pics of it on google. But other than that, I try to purchase Mari-cultured or wild pieces. That's a little more challenging for me personally.

I think it's more of a zoa thing. It just HAS to have a name if it's a zoa. SPS are similar, but I have sold generic mariculture/wild SPS before as no name SPS. But still, I do find they sell better if I put a name on them. But, I don't charge $100 for a frag just because I called it "Boom's Creme de Menthe" etc. It's going to be my normal pricing in most cases, and that pricing is based upon what I paid for it.