Marine velvet or ich. I don't know

[DanielJameS]

@melypr1985 and @Humblefish I was curious to know what your thoughts were on the accuracy/delay of ammonia readings with the Seachem ammonia alert? QT has been running now for about 2 weeks and I've had nothing crazy high, have done water changes, but notice the ammo badge is a little on the gray side, even after doing a 16 gallon water change in a 20 gallon.

Have you found them to be fairly accurate in terms of the color labeling and subsequent danger levels to the fish?

 

[melypr1985]

@melypr1985 and @Humblefish I was curious to know what your thoughts were on the accuracy/delay of ammonia readings with the Seachem ammonia alert? QT has been running now for about 2 weeks and I've had nothing crazy high, have done water changes, but notice the ammo badge is a little on the gray side, even after doing a 16 gallon water change in a 20 gallon.

Have you found them to be fairly accurate in terms of the color labeling and subsequent danger levels to the fish?

I haven't had any problems with the badge, but their readings are not gospel. I have found, IME, that the colors are accurate to the chart around the center, though you may need to use a white flashlight above or behind the badge to see the colors clearly.

 

[Humblefish]

I haven't had any problems with the badge, but their readings are not gospel. I have found, IME, that the colors are accurate to the chart around the center, though you may need to use a white flashlight above or behind the badge to see the colors clearly.

+1 The white light either directly overhead or behind the badge can make a huge difference.

 

[DanielJameS]

@melypr1985 @Humblefish thanks y'all that's how I'm reading it, I just wanted to make sure when it says it's at .02 it's not really 1.0ppm or something like that

 

[DanielJameS]

22 Days and counting, all fish are alive, spot/mark free, eating and relaxed [emoji1360] also have had the chance to re-do aquascape and coral placement, things are looking up thanks again y'all

 

[DanielJameS]

By the way @melypr1985 I know you have a lot of experience with chromis', it's been apparent that those discolored marks on mine (as pictured) only make an appearance at times of stress or heightened awareness. As of late, I've noticed every time I feed...the chromis goes into patchy mode for about 2-3 minutes and as things calm back down, totally fine looking. Is this something you've seen with them at all?

 

[melypr1985]

By the way @melypr1985 I know you have a lot of experience with chromis', it's been apparent that those discolored marks on mine (as pictured) only make an appearance at times of stress or heightened awareness. As of late, I've noticed every time I feed...the chromis goes into patchy mode for about 2-3 minutes and as things calm back down, totally fine looking. Is this something you've seen with them at all?

Not really.... though I don't usually have the time to sit and watch the ones at the store like that. I'll try to make an effort to do so over the next couple days.

 

[DanielJameS]

Not really.... though I don't usually have the time to sit and watch the ones at the store like that. I'll try to make an effort to do so over the next couple days.

Yeah this is not something subtle you'd have to sit and watch...it's super obvious just when feeding

 

[DanielJameS]

@melypr1985 and @Humblefish I'd love to get your experienced opinion based on these pictures. This fish came in from an online order to a clean quarantine tank with no visible symptoms whatsoever. 24-36 hours later I began a preventive prazipro treatment after noticing another fish exhibiting some symptoms of what I thought might be gill flukes (head twitch/yawning, minor flashing) 24 hours after that I woke up to find the fish laying on the bottom. Pulled it, and did a fresh water dip. The first picture is what was visible AFTER the dip. I did not notice a swarm of sesame seeds but did see a couple white floaters. The size of the opaque white marks on the fish in the dip made me think flukes. The fish didn't recover and as a last ditch effort I attempted a ruby reef rally bath to see if the fish would show signs of life. The second picture is the fish after perishing.

Is it possible the prazi dosed to the water shocking flukes on the fish could cause this damage? Or is this velvet/ich or maybe both? Again, no visible or behavioral signs of parasites with this fish prior to it laying on the bottom.

Sorry for the long winded question but I'm really trying to learn more about accurate ID to act accordingly. (I currently have a therapeutic level of CP in the water)

 

[Humblefish]

@DanielJameS If the fish was LOADED with flukes prior to dosing Prazipro, then all those flukes spasming simultaneously on the fish can actually kill it. This is why a FW dip is recommended before dosing Prazipro, if a heavy infestation is suspected. Being the tang didn't get the FW dip until after Prazi had already been dosed, there's no way of knowing if he had a heavy infestation or not.

However just looking at that fish, I'd be willing to bet he died from velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

Let's ask @4FordFamily for his opinion as well; he has a lot of experience seeing tangs that succumbed to velvet.

 

[4FordFamily]

@DanielJameS If the fish was LOADED with flukes prior to dosing Prazipro, then all those flukes spasming simultaneously on the fish can actually kill it. This is why a FW dip is recommended before dosing Prazipro, if a heavy infestation is suspected. Being the tang didn't get the FW dip until after Prazi had already been dosed, there's no way of knowing if he had a heavy infestation or not.

However just looking at that fish, I'd be willing to bet he died from velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

Let's ask @4FordFamily for his opinion as well; he has a lot of experience seeing tangs that succumbed to velvet.

It's really hard to tell because color loss is observed in tangs for several ailments, especially shortly after death. However, I DO see it most frequently in cases of velvet. Flukes certainly could have been the culprit as well.

 

[DanielJameS]

Thanks gentleman...being that this was an online order I was sort of fearful of doing a FW dip until neccessary but now that I understand their guarantee, I know I can do that.

I have a flame Angel that was exhibiting signs of flukes, I dipped him...and noticed some come off in the water, and he looks 100% better today so I suppose that tang could have had a heavy infestation coming in.

I know on the next go around to do a FW dip prior to prazi, unfortunate but just another reminder of what could have happened Willy Nilly throwing this fish in a display (as many do.)

Thank you for your helpful insight once again.

Dan

 

[DanielJameS]

@Humblefish - I'm curious, is it part of your regimen to FW dip and do a bath on every new fish that comes in prior to even going into QT? If so what's the percentage of times you see issues with the fish after these steps? It would seem if the dip would dislodge a large majority of velvet and/or flukes, and a bath may eradicate or provide gill relief of parasites in the gills then the majority of the concern would be ich embedded under the skins surface unaffected by dips or meds, I assume depending on the infestation some trophonts are capable of surviving dips/baths?

Is it true that velvet can live within the fishes gills in an encysted form causing no ill effects until it ruptures? Or is it more likely that the trophonts will drop and encyst on hard surfaces within the aquarium? Do Tomonts form within the gills? - Fascinating, crafty little buggers.

 

[Humblefish]

@DanielJameS I only perform a FW dip on fish I suspect have flukes or velvet. To provide temporary relief before treatment begins. It's unclear what percentage of trophonts/worms survive, but one study did show a 5 min FW dip cleared 80-90% of velvet trophonts on a fish. I would never assume 100% eradication following a FW dip, which is why followup treatment in a QT is necessary.

What happens with velvet is dinospores (free swimmers) invade the gills, latch on as trophonts and then excess mucous builds up around those trophonts. Normally this is a good thing, as excess mucous is an immune response designed to aid the fish. (Excess mucous is also what causes the "white dots" you see on fish with ich, velvet, etc.) However, when mucus covers the gills death will occur rapidly from suffocation.

 

[DanielJameS]

@DanielJameS I only perform a FW dip on fish I suspect have flukes or velvet. To provide temporary relief before treatment begins. It's unclear what percentage of trophonts/worms survive, but one study did show a 5 min FW dip cleared 80-90% of velvet trophonts on a fish. I would never assume 100% eradication following a FW dip, which is why followup treatment in a QT is necessary.

What happens with velvet is dinospores (free swimmers) invade the gills, latch on as trophonts and then excess mucous builds up around those trophonts. Normally this is a good thing, as excess mucous is an immune response designed to aid the fish. (Excess mucous is also what causes the "white dots" you see on fish with ich, velvet, etc.) However, when mucus covers the gills death will occur rapidly from suffocation.

It's quite amazing how many people I see around online who for lack of a better term are so "lucky" with tossing new fish into an aquarium. I was one of them in years passed. I'd also assume so many folks chalk up random deaths to other sources or take the worst approach which is replace fish when one dies and continue that cycle over and over again. Great for suppliers I suppose, terrible for certain species (and the wallet.)

All of it still feels like spinning the roulette table, hoping the ball at least lands in your square. Maybe I'll be fortunate to be alive for a time in technological advances where these things can be tested for (without scrapes and microscopes) a Hanna parasite checker perhaps? [emoji6]

Thanks again for the insight, myself and others are more educated and successful reefers because of folks like you.

Dan

 

[Humblefish]

@DanielJameS I've never been one of the "lucky ones" back when I did not QT. Things would be fine for awhile, but it seemed only a matter of time before I was pulling all my inverts out and treating with copper again. This was back before reefs were the norm; most people used dead coral skeletons for tank decorations.

Then I went through my "herbal medication phase" and after that I tried ich management using an oversized UV, garlic, vitamins, live foods, etc. I guess I was Paul B Jr. The latter kinda worked, except I still had trouble keeping Batfish, Moorish Idols and Acanthurus Tangs alive.

After 30 years, the opportunity for me to finally hit the "reset button" occurred after I lost everything to Hurricane Katrina. I moved to London and learned A TON there I never knew (will always be grateful to European researchers). When I came back to America, I stubbornly refused to QT again and over a one year period really got my butt handed to me battling fish diseases in a DT. Over 30 years in the hobby and I couldn't even keep a damsel alive - it was a very humbling experience.

It was then I decided I needed to either: a) Stop being hardheaded and put into practice all the things I had learned or b) Walk away from this hobby with my tail tucked in-between my legs. I chose what was behind Door A, and am much more content now than at any other time in this hobby.

 

[DanielJameS]

@Humblefish - that's quite the story. Those kinds of challenges though are what have kept me fascinated with this hobby over the last 10 years. This most recent tank I have however has presented the most head scratching for me, so sooner or later anyone who continues in the hobby is sure to run into this.

As of right now, I'm trying to gather all the information on being able to diagnose some of these things prior to it being too late, particularly behavioral symptoms. The problems I've had with fish thus far did not present themselves as classic ich or velvet exterior symptoms, so it's been extra confusing - enter flukes...which is pretty new to me.

I never know if a fish is flashing does it automatically indicate a major problem? Or could it be stress related. If a fish is presenting itself to a cleaner species (fish or shrimp) does it mean they have parasites? Sometimes I find it hard to walk the tight rope between overreacting, or reacting accordingly. I hate to lose anything I invest in.

 

[Humblefish]

I never know if a fish is flashing does it automatically indicate a major problem? Or could it be stress related. If a fish is presenting itself to a cleaner species (fish or shrimp) does it mean they have parasites? Sometimes I find it hard to walk the tight rope between overreacting, or reacting accordingly. I hate to lose anything I invest in.

A scratch here & there can just mean the fish has an itch; however continuous scratching is usually a sign of external parasites or worms. Especially if the gills are being targeted.

Cleaner shrimp will eat dead skin/scales and are also capable of picking off "surface parasites" such as velvet or flukes. (Ich trophonts embed too deeply under the skin.) I will say since I've taken up proper QT, my fish seem to have little to no interest in any cleaner shrimp I put in there.

 

[DanielJameS]

Cleaner shrimp will eat dead skin/scales and are also capable of picking off "surface parasites" such as velvet or flukes. (Ich trophonts embed too deeply under the skin.) I will say since I've taken up proper QT, my fish seem to have little to no interest in any cleaner shrimp I put in there.

I have a flame Angel in QT right now with an ORA hybrid goby (who wants nothing to do with him) saw him flashing earlier and trying to get cleaned, but there's a full dose of prazi in the water. Going to do CP when the prazi is done, hoping nothing goes south before I can get the CP in.

My last flame Angel purchase is what started this whole thing a few months ago.