Marine velvet or ich. I don't know

[4FordFamily]

By the way if using copper you'll need the seachem ammonia badge. All other tests will show false positives.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Just picked this stuff up Humblefish. What's next? O I also have the pump and dark blue buckets

This stuff in no way will work. I just had an almost whole tank wipeout due to Velvet/ICH. Kick ICH is a complete waste of money.

 

[Humblefish]

You need to treat all of them. Get a bigger qt or do 90% water changes as often as necessary. And angels do fine in cupramine I have taken dozens through without issue.

+1 Treat the fish showing symptoms first, but know ALL will need to be treated for one solid month. Leave the DT fallow for 72 days.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

+1 Treat the fish showing symptoms first, but know ALL will need to be treated for one solid month. Leave the DT fallow for 72 days.

Take that advice. I wavered for a week and it cost me a lot more fish. With Velvet it comes on so quick and before you know it, they'll all be dead.

 

[Humblefish]

This stuff in no way will work. I just had an almost whole tank wipeout due to Velvet/ICH. Kick ICH is a complete waste of money.

Looks like he had to buy the Kick ICH to get the Rally. I have no experience using Kick ICH. But I used Rally as the bath component of a procedure that saved three fish with velvet I was experimenting on. The acriflavine found in Rally actually worked better than the formalin bath I used on one of the fish. I will be writing a full article outlining my protocol once I know the fish are completely out of the woods.

 

[evmibo]

Curious to hear what your outcome was, @cane ?

I've lost 3 fish in about 5 days suddenly, and out of desperation bought a large pack of Kick Ich + Rally combo and am treating the display with them both. Before the first death, I saw mild signs of what I thought was ich, and after minimally feeding over two days earlier this week I lost one of my fairy wrasses, followed by my Blenny yesterday, and now my female perc this morning. Based on the speed I feel like it's velvet but it looked closer to Ich.

Sounds horrible, but I am so busy with work and family that catching all fish, setting up a QT, and keeping up with it seems unfeasible. The best I can do is the "management" route, should I get a UV sterilizer?

Here's a low quality picture. Not sure how helpful this will be, but the female clown had some spots but mostly had a cloudy film in some areas, look fungal. It was clear/cloudy white, not gold like I've seen with velvet events. Her caudal fin had some streamers (for lack of a better word). Hooded wrasse looked pretty healthy to me before it died, and only issues I saw were occasional scratching on rocks, and hanging out in the current close to the surface. The blenny was a starry blenny so it was impossible to see dots, but it was biting it's tail a couple days before the downfall.

 

[Humblefish]

The best I can do is the "management" route, should I get a UV sterilizer?

This will prove to be marginally effective, but only if you are dealing with ich. Velvet dinospores are far too numerous to keep in check.

 

[DanielJameS]

I don't mean to jump in on this thread, but I'm having the same issue. I fear I have velvet in my DT, but am really torn about dismantling everything to get the fish out, causing further stress, when several of them look completely healthy. Not to mention I have a couple lightning quick fish (lm blenny and dottyback) that I can easily see requiring a complete dismantling of rock to catch . Maybe a trap?

My question is, is there any way to determine it's NOT velvet? Interestingly you see more online pointing to what it could be, but no examples that may point to it being something else. I've had some deaths through my journey with this tank so far, a couple of which could easily be confused for stress induced, or other issues, and I don't have any fish in my tank that are good "billboards" for ich or velvet such as a tang.

Super frustrated at the moment, tried to do things right but I botched the main thing, QT. I didn't have the "extra" equipment when I acquired this tank to set up a QT, I do now. Just trying to determine if it's really velvet killing these fish before I take the wrecking ball to what currently is a beautiful healthy reef (sans some fish)

Dan

 

[Humblefish]

My question is, is there any way to determine it's NOT velvet? Interestingly you see more online pointing to what it could be, but no examples that may point to it being something else. I've had some deaths through my journey with this tank so far, a couple of which could easily be confused for stress induced, or other issues, and I don't have any fish in my tank that are good "billboards" for ich or velvet such as a tang.

Velvet trophonts (white dots) are round & smaller than oval shaped ich trophonts. Also, if you can count the dots on the fish then it's probably ich. If they are too numerous to count, odds are you are dealing with velvet.

Velvet also has two unique behavorial symptoms: Fish with velvet will often swim into the flow of a powerhead to seek relief and purposely stay out of the light.

 

[DanielJameS]

Velvet trophonts (white dots) are round & smaller than oval shaped ich trophonts. Also, if you can count the dots on the fish then it's probably ich. If they are too numerous to count, odds are you are dealing with velvet.

Velvet also has two unique behavorial symptoms: Fish with velvet will often swim into the flow of a powerhead and purposely stay out of the light.

Thanks for the reply. I've actually read all of that already, coincidentally published by you (you have amazing info by the way, excellent read - kept me up late last night haha)

I guess the part that bumps me is when fish die off before having much if no symptoms at all.

I've had 2 chromis die over the last month. The first I attributed to bullying. He was the smallest of the group, had some torn fins, looked a little beat up, but through my reading it seemed this to be a well known issue with chromis. After the other two shunned him, he stayed to himself for over a week before he eventually vanished. It wasn't till the second (who died yesterday) suddenly out of nowhere started to isolate, stopped eating, seemed lethargic, and eventually I found him rapid gilling on the bottom of the tank last night. Now, the third (largest, fattest, and healthiest) is super skittish and hiding a lot. He shows no visible signs and ate today, but I feel it's just de-ja-vue all over and wouldn't be surprised if he starts declining over the course of the week.

I have two clowns (not mated pair but bought together) who have been fine, happy, healthy for 2 months. An orchid dottyback I've had for 4 months, who I have seen flashing, but rarely ever has come out since I got him, a LM blenny (who I have also seen flashing) but is active, eats mysis and nori, and a clown goby who seems ok. Tank parameters are ALL solid and corals are all doing awesome, so not water.

The main red flag was a flame Angel I tried to introduce a couple weeks ago. He was a fresh shipment, but I watched him for an hour at the store before buying, acclimated him properly and went in the tank with no stress, other fish didn't even know. The next day he was out and about picking at rocks, 5-6 days later I noticed a couple barely visible specks on his tail, he'd swim up sideways to my fire shrimp (who wouldn't clean him) but still looked healthy. 2 days later, I found him dead wedged under a rock one morning.

This whole thing has me scratching my head.

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks for the reply. I've actually read all of that already, coincidentally published by you (you have amazing info by the way, excellent read - kept me up late last night haha)

I guess the part that bumps me is when fish die off before having much if no symptoms at all.

I've had 2 chromis die over the last month. The first I attributed to bullying. He was the smallest of the group, had some torn fins, looked a little beat up, but through my reading it seemed this to be a well known issue with chromis. After the other two shunned him, he stayed to himself for over a week before he eventually vanished. It wasn't till the second (who died yesterday) suddenly out of nowhere started to isolate, stopped eating, seemed lethargic, and eventually I found him rapid gilling on the bottom of the tank last night. Now, the third (largest, fattest, and healthiest) is super skittish and hiding a lot. He shows no visible signs and ate today, but I feel it's just de-ja-vue all over and wouldn't be surprised if he starts declining over the course of the week.

I have two clowns (not mated pair but bought together) who have been fine, happy, healthy for 2 months. An orchid dottyback I've had for 4 months, who I have seen flashing, but rarely ever has come out since I got him, a LM blenny (who I have also seen flashing) but is active, eats mysis and nori, and a clown goby who seems ok. Tank parameters are ALL solid and corals are all doing awesome, so not water.

The main red flag was a flame Angel I tried to introduce a couple weeks ago. He was a fresh shipment, but I watched him for an hour at the store before buying, acclimated him properly and went in the tank with no stress, other fish didn't even know. The next day he was out and about picking at rocks, 5-6 days later I noticed a couple barely visible specks on his tail, he'd swim up sideways to my fire shrimp (who wouldn't clean him) but still looked healthy. 2 days later, I found him dead wedged under a rock one morning.

This whole thing has me scratching my head.

This sounds like ick to me based on the timeline. There could be multiple problems happening at the same time like ick and flukes, but if this were velvet, they should be dying much faster than over the course of a month or so. You can't treat this in tank, so to get rid of the problem the fish will all have to come out. That's what I would do - and have. If you just want to try and live with it and expect to loose fish occasionally, then you'll want to read this article if you haven't already.
Ich eradication vs. Ich management

 

[DanielJameS]

This sounds like ick to me based on the timeline. There could be multiple problems happening at the same time like ick and flukes, but if this were velvet, they should be dying much faster than over the course of a month or so. You can't treat this in tank, so to get rid of the problem the fish will all have to come out. That's what I would do - and have. If you just want to try and live with it and expect to loose fish occasionally, then you'll want to read this article if you haven't already.
Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Yes I'm in the process at the moment of finding another 20 gallon long to set up a QT ASAP. I do have a 10 I could use. I have a sponge in my sump that's been there for about two weeks so hopefully I can get something stable up quick.

As we speak, my last chromis has been hiding all day, as soon as the start of the moonlight cycle started he was out swimming around, so light sensitivity? Plus i can see him twitching and I just saw him flashing on my mag cleaner. This guy was totally fine a couple days ago and had no markings on him. Whatever this is is happening fast and clearly going after the gills, which is why I suspect velvet.

I need to get everything I can out of here ASAP, the clowns are fine right now. Does velvet typically only go after the weakest stressed fish in succession? Or does it hit multiple fish at once? It's like one by one this is taking out fish.

 

[melypr1985]

As we speak, my last chromis has been hiding all day, as soon as the start of the moonlight cycle started he was out swimming around, so light sensitivity? Plus i can see him twitching and I just saw him flashing on my mag cleaner. This guy was totally fine a couple days ago and had no markings on him. Whatever this is is happening fast and clearly going after the gills, which is why I suspect velvet.

I need to get everything I can out of here ASAP, the clowns are fine right now. Does velvet typically only go after the weakest stressed fish in succession? Or does it hit multiple fish at once? It's like one by one this is taking out fish.

It could still be either, or even both. Yes, there are some strains of velvet that seem to run a bit slower and don't show any outward symptoms, just behavioral ones. It can take them all down within a week, or one by one. Once the weakest dies, the others will either fall prey to it, or continue on for a while being carriers. If velvet is involved, then eventually you will lose the remaining fish

 

[DanielJameS]

Yeah...this sucks. I have read clowns are a little more resistant to it due to their slime coat which must be why they've been the healthiest.

I have saltwater mixing up right now. Going to setup the QT I have and pull out whatever I possibly can as quick as possible. There are fish that are going to be next to impossible to catch.

Would a freshwater dip provide some relief prior to going into the QT with new saltwater? Or at least buy some time for me to get a treatment rolling?

 

[melypr1985]

Would a freshwater dip provide some relief prior to going into the QT with new saltwater? Or at least buy some time for me to get a treatment rolling?

If you are dealing with velvet and/or flukes yes. Ick is more of a maybe on that front. In your situation I think it's a good move.

 

[DanielJameS]

Copy that. Oyyyy. Always a new adventure I swear.

 

[DanielJameS]

As an aside, (and this is probably going to be a "DUH!" Moment for me)

Why is there so much emphasis on sterilizing a QT after use/treatment and/or not using water or gear from the potentially infected DT for the QT? If you're going to run copper through it anyway shouldn't that kill off any parasites that were left behind?

I understand the logic the other way of not letting copper medicated elements go back into the DT, obviously.

Also, why not just keep the QT up and running afterwards? In my case if it's a simple 10 gallon tank with a HOB, keeping the whole thing running empty is very minimal wattage and expense so when a new fish comes in, you can preventatively treat it with the medication of choice right off the bat whether it displays signs or not.

Is this flawed thinking? I guess I'm confused if copper (or CP) is just going to go into it anyway.

 

[Humblefish]

@DanielJameS Read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/qt-and-biofilm.292878/

As far as reusing water/equipment from an infected DT for QT, I advise against doing that (if possible) for this reason: You are just transferring over more free swimmers & cysts. For example, let's say you are slowly raising Cu in QT to treat for ich or velvet. If more free swimmers are in the water (or sponge) or get released from a tomont encysted to a piece of equipment, before copper reaches therapeutic, then that means your fish will be subjected to more trophonts (feeding on them) vs. if you had just used a sterile QT.

When battling fish diseases, any little thing you can turn to your advantage can make the difference between life and death.

 

[DanielJameS]

@DanielJameS Read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/qt-and-biofilm.292878/

As far as reusing water/equipment from an infected DT for QT, I advise against doing that (if possible) for this reason: You are just transferring over more free swimmers & cysts. For example, let's say you are slowly raising Cu in QT to treat for ich or velvet. If more free swimmers are in the water (or sponge) or get released from a tomont encysted to a piece of equipment, before copper reaches therapeutic, then that means your fish will be subjected to more trophonts (feeding on them) vs. if you had just used a sterile QT.

When battling fish diseases, any little thing you can turn to your advantage can make the difference between life and death.

Understood, that makes sense. So essentially just doing all the things to increase the odds of eradicating the parasite.

I'm now thinking maybe ich over velvet. Since my last post (4 days ago or so) all the fish are back out swimming around looking fine, eating etc so it may be something other than velvet. I certainly hope it's not Urenema considering my chromis have been the hardest hit.

I have a yellow clown goby that's got what appear to be more like skin tags, but regardless the treatment is the next step. I have a QT ready to roll and a trap in the tank attempting to see if the dotty will go for it. If not it's all gotta come out.

Thanks so much for you're experienced knowledge and advice.

Dan

 

[DanielJameS]

@Humblefish I hate to bother you with one more thing, but I have noticed some intermittent behavior indicative of flukes as well (head twitching, scratching targeting gill area, and yawning.)

My yellow clown goby despite eating continues to look gaunt, he's the only one in the tank showing any physical symptoms of anything. I don't know if these pictures tell you anything based on your experience?

He's coming out today and hopefully most of the others I can catch as well.