massive coral die off!!!!!!!!!!! :(

[Paul_N]

All I am saying is that people should make educated decisions based on their own research. Don't rely on Fox News or CNN or whomever to get your facts from.

I wasn't referring to you telling me how to live my life but those on the fringe of the "movement", if that includes you then I guess I do mean you. If they had their way, they would be able to dictate what people drive and how much they drive.

I do make educated decisions. It just seems that when someone disagrees with you the phrase "making an educated decision" or "educating yourself' keeps popping up as if to infer that just because we don't see it your way that we are not. I'm not the one quoting CNN articles.

 

[Speg]

Fine I edited my post. I just get so frustrated with so many people that are completely apathetic to the problem.

Why should mother nature "take care of it" when we are the cause of the problem? When you are an adult and you make a mess then you should take responsibility and clean it up. So why don't most people feel the same way about what we are doing to the planet? It is a beautiful planet with so many wonders and yet we continue to screw it up with very little action being taken to fix it. Everywhere you turn things are falling apart; there is global warming, tons and tons of plastic in the ocean, bluefin tuna are bordering extinction due to over fishing, oil spills are frequent, etc, etc, etc. These aren't myths these are things that are happening now that affect us and all of the generations to come. It is not someone else's problem, it is our problem. Its not an insurmountable problem either, if we all work together and do a little bit each day then we can make things better. Recycling, reducing your junk mail 41pounds.org , using less water, using less electricity, choosing organic/green products over regular ones, not supporting bad companies like Monsanto, educating other people around you about the importance of preserving and taking care of our world, all of these things make a difference.

Humans think that they should control everything in this world and that we have more of a right to it than the other creatures we share it with. If this is the case we should take our responsibility as its stewards seriously, instead of acting like children who think someone will come along and clean up our mess.

The problem is not out of our hands and no one is going to take care of it for us. If God created this world and we were lucky enough to be put upon it, then we should treasure everyday and treat our planet with love. Because if we don't, we are destroying one of God's greatest creations.

Where do I start.. Please know that "Global Warming" is a theory. I know that you have stated that several scientists believe it, but in reality, it's a theory that nobody can prove. If you'd like to talk about global warming being the cause of the oceans heating up, then lets talk about it! Are you aware of volcanoes? Did you know that volcanoes spew tons of materials from deep within our Earth? Those materials may have some radioactive material from the core and many other seriously dangerous gases, oils, FUMES, etc...volcanoes have occured long before humans started to "destroy the Earth". I would think that these volcanoes would have caused some sort of extreme "global warming" by now. Do some research because many scientists actually believe that the Earth is slowly cooling down and not heating up. Not that I agree with either of these >>>>theories<<<< but it's clear that we honestly don't know what's going on because it's way too early in the age of human records to tell if things are heating up, cooling down, or just sort of normal.

By the way, did you know that oil naturally seeps into the ocean all on its own? I'm not saying that our oil spills don't matter, but nature does tend its share of polluting.

There are species that are over fished, and what happens? We limit the fishing on those species. On the flip side, there are some species that thrive, but nobody complains that we're allowing for those species to reproduce like crazy....but what will end up happening? We'll probably fish out those animals to try to come to a balance.

It's just silly to believe that humans could actually influence the Earth's temperatures in just a few hundred years when the Earth has been polluting itself for millions of years. A scientist only KNOWS theories...and a science teacher only KNOWS what a scientist has written down.

Honestly, humans have been trying to do a lot to help the Earth. Recycling has taken off in the last 20 years, cars companies are trying to be more efficient, we're trying to come up with good sources of alternative energy...heck...in the last five years look what has happened to this hobby alone! We've (reef hobbyists) have been aquaculturing fish/coral and cutting the wild caught species WAY down. Humans do care. Some care more, some care less, it's not up to an individual to cast judgement on who cares more than someone else. Lets just all do what we can to make the world a better place to live in.

 

[110reef]

So its just propaganda that many of the people that have worked for the FDA have also worked for Monsanto? So, these guys left their jobs at a corporation and took jobs at the FDA, working a government job where I am sure they are making a lot more money. I suppose your theory is that they are still getting paid by Monsanto. Conspiracy! Or maybe they have the same knowledge set, and their skills are useful on either side of the aisle. hmmm....And its also propaganda that the Mineral Management Services took bribes from oil companies? Yes. Perhaps there are instances of this, but not everyone is guilty of this. What is more likely, is that after many, many, many years of safe operation that the regulators and the industry got lax with enforcement of the standards that are in place due to complacency. Shortcuts were taken, and an accident occurred. Human nature at work, not some kind of conspiracy. And even more propaganda that are oceans are filling up with plastics? Yes. I haven't seen any ocean filled with plastic yet. Mistakes like oil spills, chemical spills, environmental damage are not as occasional as you would like us to think, they are actually quite a regular occurance nowadays. I could site many examples, but I'm sure you would just call it propaganda.

Monsanto has tried to distance themselves from their chemical history, but they continue to sell Super Roundup in Colombia to help fight against the drug war there. Apparantly the Columbians like this chemical, or is Monsanto forcing them to buy it...This chemical is proving so effective at killing everything that many farmers are actually having to turn to growing cocoa because nothing else will grow So, why does cocoa grow and nothing else? That is just absurd. This same chemical is banned for use in U.S. No. Ultra Roundup active ingredient is glyphosate, just as in regular roundup. It is very common, both in the store and in its use by farmers all over the world. This is factual and anyone can do the research to find it out. If you go to a propaganda site. Monsanto is not an innocent company that has just made a few simple mistakes. If they cared about the mistakes they have made they would not continue to create deadly chemicals or go out of their way to sue American farmers. Many chemicals are deadly, but still useful. How many people drown in water every year. So we should ban the deadly chemical water...The farmer is their main customer, do you think that they are really interested in suing farmers? They spend millions of dollars lobbying and influencing our politicians, why? To stop people from spreading propaganda based on hearsay and bogus stories.

Industry will always play a big role in our economy, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be held accountable for its wrongs. Yes. There obviously needs to be better regulation and safety standards put in place to ensure that corporations follow the rules and don't damage the environment or take advantage of people. There are. They may need modification from time to time. Our government has bee very weak in this area for a long time. Maybe in some areas. Maybe too strong in other areas. It is still possible to have a healthy economy that is well regulated. Some people tend to think that if a capitalist economy has any kind of regulation that it will automatically turn into a socialist system. No, but over-regulation is as detrimental as under-regulation. That is why everything is now made in China and not the US, cause it costs way less to make it over there. Less regulation, less safety, and also lower labor costs. The key is to get a level of regulation we can live with, checks and balances. Easy to say, tough to do.

Just look at the recession we are in. A lot of it was caused because many people got greedy and banking became very deregulated. Yes. Many corporations made bad investments on bad loans and they knew they were bad loans, but did not look to the future and were only concerned about the money they were making at the time. Yes. Companies will rarely regulate themselves because they are more interested in the money they make. Yes to a point. A company knows that it will pay dearly for its mistakes and for bad products, and does not purposefully try to develop and market bad or dangerous products. That being said, when one turns out to be bad, a company will try to save its investment and minimize its losses. However, lawsuits and regulations do help in setting things right (as right as possible)If Americans don't care about these things that you like to call "propaganda" then corporations will continue to take advantage of the situation.

 

[Reef Goddess]

my own

 

[Troylee]

Ya know I'm sitting here thinking about this and if you read the article again this was like almost overnight temp swing...
It didn't gradualy warm up to that temp which leads me to believe with all the volcanic activity in the area that maybe there was a earthquake that is releasing gasses under the sea causing such a rapid warming tempature... It would explain alot....

 

[Reef Goddess]

actions can change things.

 

[Amici]

This is exactly what I was going to say troylee. We all know that drastic changes are what cause bleaching. Ive seen a tank with a faulty heater slowly creep into the 90s and it was a slow stressing of the corals and not just a blam its gone. I think that there might be a different culprit.

What DOES kill me are the people who come in touting save the environment and injecting politics into it and saying dont use company XYZ. Ive got a degree in politics, studied environmental science in college (didnt minor because of the chem requirement ) as well as a minor in cultural anthropology. When I read some people posts, I laugh so hard because its just not even worth replying to them. People who go around quoting news organizations and articles written by a journalist (who were likely told what to say based on someone's opinion) just dumbfounds me. If you want information on these topics then quote and read scholastic articles. News organizations publish just about anything and everything to get people to read an article.

If you preach preservation through (non extremist) local education then you will see a change. Give people the means to read scholarly articles about the topic you are so passionate about and then leave it at that. A good majority of going green starts right in your back yard through purchasing locally grown/produced products to lessen your footprint (FYI some organic products are actually WORSE for the environment due to the amount of other resources used in the process). If you want to really be amazed take a look at this lesson:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/science-ed/2007/Food.pdf

Might open your eyes to just how much resources we use for things we didnt even realize. What fuel source do you think is used to power the power plant which the water treatment plants use? You think we have large pumps....just think about how big theirs are. Once you get the BIG picture behind preservation, there is this little light bulb that goes off and you actually see what you really can do to make a difference. Until then....you're just screaming at people who look at you like your off your rocker. I applaud proactivity and education, I shun blanket statements and extremist views which only push people more to the apathetic spectrum.

 

[110reef]

I think we can all agree that pollution is sad. I think we can also agree that no one wants to see all that junk floating in the waterways, or dead birds or seals. But the fact is that those pictures, while graphic and stunning, are not representative of the vast majority of the world. Yes there is pollution. We need to clean it up. Yes, we need to reduce our environmental footprint. All I was saying is that companies are not "bad". Monsanto is not "bad". People are not "bad". Each may do bad things, either on purpose or by accident. We as citizens of the earth need to decide what we can live with and what we can live without. Industrialization brings with it an element of pollution, and an element of danger. It also brings food, clothing, transportation, shelter, communication, the ability for many many people to exist in small areas, extended life-spans, medicine, education, etc. Living in a non-industrialized society maybe is easier on the earth, but brings other dangers (to humans), like short life-spans, disease, lack of food, etc. So, all I am saying is there is a trade-off. And companies like Monsanto improve the quality of (human) life and the ability for the earth to support (human) life.

Likewise no one wants to see the corals die, and I hate it when it happens in my tank. An maybe no one should be allowed to have an aquarium because inevitably, the creatures in there will die. Going "green" is an admirable goal, and we will be forced to go that way as the fossil fuel supply dwindles. But it will happen because it makes sense to do so from an economic perspective (when the price of gas gets so high that the alternative methods become the same or cheaper), rather than people being forced to do it. When gasoline powered cars first appeared, they were a toy for the rich, and basically shunned by the general public. When they became cheap and reliable (and better than a horse), then the masses flocked to them. Same will happen with alternative fuels. As for food supplies, I do not see any way to feed the future masses of people except by continuing and improving upon the methods that are being used now, including genetically modified crops and the application of appropriate chemicals for crop protection. If you could do it another way, they would...

As far as climate is concerned, it is hard to say whether it is natural or man-made, but it is well known that the earth has been warmer in the past, and cooler in the past. Life has always adapted. Maybe the corals will begin growing off of North Carolina, or New Jersey, or wherever the conditions are right. There used to be seas in the center of the continent, they no longer exist. So, while I think that we can and should decrease our environmental footprint, I also believe that the earth will change and survive.

Then yellowstone will erupt and plunge us into an ice-age, or a meteor will hit us and kill the entire planet or something, or we will launch all our nukes and wipe each other out...

 

[johnanddawn]

. A scientist only KNOWS theories...and a science teacher only KNOWS what a scientist has written down.

hmmm i wonder if this statement is aimed at me?
thanks for the compliment though, i'm glad you realize that i read and examine all ideas and evidence that the scientific community presents. as i, like the majority of people, do not have the time or the means to facilitate long term studies in every field of science, so yes i have to evaluate their experimental premise and proceedures to make judgements

I don't want to dictate anything to anyone, all I can do is hope that people will make the decision that will be the best for them and our planet. Many people are surrounded by facts but choose to ignore them because its easy. But hopefully there are many people that may not be as vocal as I am, but can see the truth for what it is. Those are the people that will change the world for the better.

Ya know I'm sitting here thinking about this and if you read the article again this was like almost overnight temp swing...
It didn't gradualy warm up to that temp which leads me to believe with all the volcanic activity in the area that maybe there was a earthquake that is releasing gasses under the sea causing such a rapid warming tempature... It would explain alot....

i have not personally had time to research this particular event in detail so i really hate to throw out a hypothesis (by the way a hypothesis and a theory are not the same thing - if you remember science 101 we often learn more from proving a hypothesis wrong then correct) but i would suspect (using just my base knowledge of oceanography which is by no means complete) that a change in ocean current trends would be the most likely suspect - not volcanic activity. as stated earlier by someone water has a very high specific heat capacity and changing the temperature of vast amounts of water requires an unconceivable amount of energy. most likey small variations in surface currents cause by the uneven heating of the earths surface by the sun caused this unusually warm water to flow into this region. this is likely not directly linkable to global climate change (ie no the ocean didn't just warm up 7 degrees because of CO2 emmissions). we have all heard of el nino right? same sort of idea - a shift in current bringing unusually warmor cold water to that particular region. however the question remains - why are so many of these unusual weather patterns emerging?

A good majority of going green starts right in your back yard through purchasing locally grown/produced products to lessen your footprint Once you get the BIG picture behind preservation, there is this little light bulb that goes off and you actually see what you really can do to make a difference. I applaud proactivity and education

nicely said

 

[Paul_N]

however the question remains - why are so many of these unusual weather patterns emerging?

This is the main question and contrary to statements in this thread, not all and not even the majority of scientists agree that these trends are man made. BUT the fringe movement is content on proceeding down the path that this is proven fact and we are all just naive for not seeing it.

*disclaimer, the following statement is not directed at you johnanddawn.

The environmental issues are just like the political issues in that most of us are just left and right of center and not very far apart in our views. It is the extremists out on the fringe that stop us from actually working together. Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. The agenda of people tends to come out when they go on tirades and cannot stop themselves.

 

[GR808]

wow, gone for a day and it's 4 pages long now!!

 

[GR808]

Came across an article with also elevated temperatures but promotes propagation as a solution rather than placing arbitrary blame.... I believe that is how we will be able to keep our marine life from harm of natural or man-made causes..
Sea temperature rise prompts coral watch - Hawaii News - Staradvertiser.com