Most likely cause of symptomless deaths

[PDR]

Also, I do agree that a lot of people quarantine wrong. I for sure did in my first couple of years. I don't find it to be easy. There are a lot of ways to screw up. I've had to do a LOT of research over the last few years to get reasonably competent at it. And i've bought a LOT more gear for it than the hypothetically bare minimum. I think two years ago you only needed extra things for rare circumstances. Now things that used to be rare seem common.

And really I think the chelated copper + hanna discovery was a big turning point that made it much more doable for me and probably everyone else. Before that running copper frankly terrified me. Now it's easy. That's a pretty big deal with how common velvet is now.

Still, even with that, I would never argue that QT is cheap or easy. I guess I could just be unlucky, or uncommonly dense, but you can just browse through this forum and see that it isn't just me if that's the case.

I completely agree. When I read people saying that it's so easy and cheap I tend to think they are either very lucky or don't have much experience with it. FWIW humblefish just replied to my other thread and discussed just how difficult and expensive QT can be.

 

[PDR]

You omitted the part where I quoted an aquarium service provider did it for his customers. It can be cheaper.

That said, just cuz you want something and can't have it doesn't mean you should. I enjoy amateur vehicle racing as a hobby. It's expensive. If I couldn't afford it then I don't get to participate. Just cuz you want something you can't afford doesn't mean you are entitled to it. And saying that I don't think makes me an elitist.

I omitted it because I am not local to fish of hex, therefore does not apply to me.

Not saying anyone is entitled to the hobby.

So your belief is that if someone cannot do things the exact way you think they should be done. They don't deserve to be in the hobby. Good to know...

 

[Skep18]

I completely agree. When I read people saying that it's so easy and cheap I tend to think they are either very lucky or don't have much experience with it. FWIW humblefish just replied to my other thread and discussed just how difficult and expensive QT can be.

I'll check it out but I'll reiterate, it seems easy enough to me. Can there be failures? Sure. Can you correct them? Absolutely.

And I think it's safe to say Humble follows 100% best practices. I believe he says it himself, it's all about risk tolerance. I'd suggest many have been successful with 95% best practices. If you miss something, per above, QT and fallow. Maybe a pain but idk what isn't straight forward.

 

[Skep18]

I omitted it because I am not local to fish of hex, therefore does not apply to me.

So your belief is that if someone cannot do things the exact way you think they should be done. They don't deserve to be in the hobby. Good to know...

Never did I say you have to do things the way I say so. I thought you were complaining that you don't want to have to QT fish. I'm just discussing it. I said it before, if you don't want to QT then awesome. You have that right. I'm not trying to pass judgment. I just don't see how it's the fish retailers fault.

And certainly there are people without local fish services but most locals do have LFS that offer tank maintenance and services. I'm just offering another option. But be aware, it'll cost money and require patience.

 

[Skep18]

But in my experience, QT'ing fish isn't hard or expensive at the hobbyist level.

As someone who is currently setting up this kind of business, I’d like to explain the challenges of quarantining en masse vs. as a hobbyist:

As a hobbyist, I would QT 2-3 fish at a time (usually in a 10 gal). The process was pretty straight forward:

I missed the part where we said different things @PDR. Kinda looks like he's saying for a hobbyist it's pretty straight forward. Usually straight forward isn't a synonym for difficult.

 

[PDR]

Never did I say you have to do things the way I say so. I thought you were complaining that you don't want to have to QT fish. I'm just discussing it. I said it before, if you don't want to QT then awesome. You have that right. I'm not trying to pass judgment. I just don't see how it's the fish retailers fault.

Maybe you misunderstood my original intent and maybe I have misinterpreted some of your comments. Regardless I was just venting about the current state of the industry. I wasn't necessarily blaming anyone, just frustrated. I do believe the current state of things could be improved, but it would need to be done at the collection/wholesaler level.

 

[Skep18]

Maybe you misunderstood my original intent and maybe I have misinterpreted some of your comments. Regardless I was just venting about the current state of the industry. I wasn't necessarily blaming anyone, just frustrated. I do believe the current state of things could be improved, but it would need to be done at the collection/wholesaler level.

I can 100% agree with this.

 

[Humblefish]

I do believe the current state of things could be improved, but it would need to be done at the collection/wholesaler level.

^^ This would be ideal. Especially if QT could be done at the collection point, before the fish are heavily infested with disease and malnourished which weakens their natural immune system. But such an endeavor would require a huge financial commitment + a change of life (location) for a prospective entrepreneur.

 

[Rython]

^^ This would be ideal. Especially if QT could be done at the collection point, before the fish are heavily infested with disease and malnourished which weakens their natural immune system. But such an endeavor would require a huge financial commitment + a change of life (location) for a prospective entrepreneur.

Now there's an idea. It's pretty risky though. You'd be taking what is probably the cheapest cost in the whole equation (collection) and drastically increasing it. You would also need a distributor to create a separate lane for your fish. They couldn't just use the same tanks as the others. They're probably not going to do that for free.

 

[Skep18]

^^ This would be ideal. Especially if QT could be done at the collection point, before the fish are heavily infested with disease and malnourished which weakens their natural immune system. But such an endeavor would require a huge financial commitment + a change of life (location) for a prospective entrepreneur.

That is a really good idea. My guess is you more than understand and might agree, but I would say that it'd be my guess that very few wholesalers would opt for the higher priced fish. This sold only be because retailers would probably also go for the lower priced fish. That being three levels disconnected from the customer, the temptation for retail shops to embrace the higher price tag is probably slim to none.

As the guy in the other thread who works at a LFS pointed out, very few of the general hobby population probably is as aware as this group to even know they should want disease free fish. Maybe even if they did know, I'd bet they'd still get the cheaper option. It's wrong and it sucks but probably true.

I think a specialty setup like the one your proposing is probably the most likely way to offer such a product. The few that are interested and willing to pay will buy from you. Idk there's enough to support a large movement though.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Example of frustration for me....

I have had my 210g running for over 10 years. Many of my fish almost that long. Well, I had to switch tanks due to a leak, blah blah, I had to hold my fish in large bins for 2 weeks instead of two days as planned.

Within 4 weeks of adding fish back into my 210g. No ammonia or spikes of any kind. Fish began dying. It was insane. I was and still am beside myself. Last ditch effort has been to remove all fish and get qt going. Done and after week+ still having fish die. No idea why. I have not done a necropsy due to time issues right now. Will if my rabbit perishes. Anyway. Every one of these fish was qt'ed prior to going into my main system.

No additional fish was added to the mix. Only a carpet anemone. Someone had a latent disease and it came out with stress and got all my others. Even the best of us (not being elitist as we have all lost fish) loose fish. I did have ich, but my fish were strong and came through it fine with no symptoms for years. These fish that died first had no symptoms, then went to bacterial issues.

In an environment like an ecosystem, we cannot be completely clear of any disease. We can only reduce the likelihood of occurrences through nutrition and good husbandry practices. This includes qt.

I agree we need to demand healthier specimens. We can only do that through how we purchase and who we support. Captive bred programs, wholesalers with protocols and scruples. Humblefish has my full support to have a system we can all support to create the right conditions for our pets.

 

[Humblefish]

I think a specialty setup like the one your proposing is probably the most likely way to offer such a product. The few that are interested and willing to pay will buy from you. Idk there's enough to support a large movement though.

It would have to be a “brand” that was tightly controlled every step of the way. “Humblefish Aquatics certified fish” (just an example ) would need to have collection facilities overseas, a wholesale location inside the US, and a retail LFS chain to sell locally. (Otherwise, it would be online only.) The first two components would be necessary to sell online only, with brick and mortar local fish shops possibly coming down the road. I’ve thought it all out inside of my head, but it would take an investor with deep pockets to actually make it happen. I estimate fish would cost at least 50% above retail, so that really narrows potential customers. Good idea, but not really financially viable when done on such a large scale.

 

[wesman42]

It would have to be a “brand” that was tightly controlled every step of the way. “Humblefish Aquatics certified fish” (just an example ) would need to have collection facilities overseas, a wholesale location inside the US, and a retail LFS chain to sell locally. (Otherwise, it would be online only.) The first two components would be necessary to sell online only, with brick and mortar local fish shops possibly coming down the road. I’ve thought it all out inside of my head, but it would take an investor with deep pockets to actually make it happen. I estimate fish would cost at least 50% above retail, so that really narrows potential customers. Good idea, but not really financially viable when done on such a large scale.

This is quite surprising to me, since the basics of vertical integration deem quantity as something that as increased, reduces cost.

 

[Maritimer]

Especially if QT could be done at the collection point, before the fish are heavily infested with disease and malnourished which weakens their natural immune system.

Except that, as you pointed out in later posts, if that certified healthy fish goes into the systems of any wholesaler or jobber, or into the 65 gallon sales tanks of a LFS that haven't been cleaned and cleared of disease (emptied, bleached, vinegared, sterilized, thoroughly dried, etc.) in a couple of years, then all the work and cost of QTing at collection is straight out the window.

With the supply chain as it stands today, the only place to QT is at or immediately prior to the end-point.

~Bruce