Moving Sump To basement. Plumbing/pump questions

[Mrreefercanada]

Best to do the calcs on head pressure properly first then order pump which should be based on your final plumbing layout. I recently made the same move of my sump to the basement. Pipe size, elbows, reducers, outle types, head height all have a great effect on pump output flow and more specifically each pump brand will perform differently. Don't forget heat loss is also of concern when you do this. Heater upgrades was also one of my upgrades that was required?

 

[Flippers4pups]

Best to do the calcs on head pressure properly first then order pump which should be based on your final plumbing layout. I recently made the same move of my sump to the basement. Pipe size, elbows, reducers, outle types, head height all have a great effect on pump output flow and more specifically each pump brand will perform differently. Don't forget heat loss is also of concern when you do this. Heater upgrades was also one of my upgrades that was required?

Having a little more pressure with a pressure rated pump is a good thing. Allows extra flow to run a manifold, Reactors, UV, etc...

 

[Flippers4pups]

Best to do the calcs on head pressure properly first then order pump which should be based on your final plumbing layout. I recently made the same move of my sump to the basement. Pipe size, elbows, reducers, outle types, head height all have a great effect on pump output flow and more specifically each pump brand will perform differently. Don't forget heat loss is also of concern when you do this. Heater upgrades was also one of my upgrades that was required?

Basements can be colder, so yes you may need to add additional heaters. Just depends.

 

[Mrreefercanada]

Basements can be colder, so yes you may need to add additional heaters. Just depends.

Correct
Its just not the temp of the basement but heat loss from the inlet coming from the display. The longer the line to the sump from the display the more heat loss that will happen and the amount of loss will be dependent on room temp, flow rates, etc....

In my case part of my design was to use the basement cooler temps to control overheating in the summer months. It worked out very well with no need for chillers or cooling equipment.

Great move for me and good luck!

 

[Super Fly]

U can use the following GPH loss data to calculate flow;

A loss of 75 to 125 GPH for each foot of height (from the pump to the display tank return)

A loss of 50 to 75 GPH for each 90 degree elbow

• A loss of 30 to 50 GPH for each 45 degree elbow

• A loss of 50 to 75 GPH for each swing check valve

• A loss of 20 to 40 GPH for each ball valve

• A loss of ~ 3 to 5 GPH for each union

 

[mygsris2slo4u]

I went through the same decision for my basement sump return.

Tank is 165 gallons with roughly 12 feet of head pressure.

I have no doubt that a red dragon or abyzz would work just fine. I, however, sold an 80w red dragon and ended up replacing it with a snapper/dart gold. While I loved the fact that it had a baldor gold motor (used in industrial applications) I had quite a few issues with leaking seals. Reeflo to their credit sent out multiple seals, impellers, casings and finally an entire new pump which I promptly returned to BRS for a refund.

I finally settled on a Iwaki md-70rlt that is throttled back quite a bit and pushing 800 gph (according to my apex flow meter) and is drawing 2.3 amps.

While the 40rxt would probably do the job, the 55rlt would be my recommendation as they are better suited for pressure applications. I am actually considering switching my 70 to the 55 for some electrical savings.

The Iwaki is loud and sounds like a box fan running.

 

[SeaJay]

While the 40rxt would probably do the job, the 55rlt would be my recommendation as they are better suited for pressure applications. I am actually considering switching my 70 to the 55 for some electrical savings.

Good info, thanks. I'm, going to do some more exact calculations on the layout of plumbing before making my final decision. Already got a return label from BRS. I'll call this a lesson learned for the low low price of $9.99 should I choose to ship it back.

The Iwaki is loud and sounds like a box fan running.

Good to know. Pretty sure I've read that they are quiet. They are definitely marketed as quiet. The Snapper/Dart gold is significantly quieter? Noise is not high on the priority list, but is always something to consider. As I finish the rest of the basement, people will be spending more and more time down there. There is a stairwell between the sump room and what will be occupied space though. Is it loud enough to be a nuisance if you are working in a small room with it for an extended period of time?

 

[SeaJay]

Thanks for the info!

With the addition of new rock, will you be using live rock or dry rock?

I have about 90lbs of live rock that started as caribsea dry base rock about a year and a half ago. I've also got a large shipwreck in there...(i know, i know). I recently picked up two life rock coral trees and an arch that I will be using in conjunction with my existing live rock. Some of the existing rock may need to be removed, but once the shipwreck is out of the way and a little more thought is put into the scape, I'd say I can keep 60-75% of it in there.

Annnnd here comes the answer everyone loves; it depends. Lol It used to be that everyone shot for a 10x turnover rate. In recent years, many reefers started preferring a rate of 5 - 7x's. Some like 3x's.

So if I can relate as a builder of hot rods, what I did was roughly the equivalent of going on an automotive forum and asking if I should build a Chevy, Ford or a Mopar???

I would be happy with a turnover of 5x's. Plus, using wavemakers (DC) will give you more options and control over flow within your tank.

Well the 40RXT based on my calculations would put me just at or slightly under 5x. So If I'm shooting for 3x, it would 'probably' be fine. Shoot for 5x and I might fall a little short...

 

[SeaJay]

Basements can be colder, so yes you may need to add additional heaters. Just depends.

I have 3 of the Finnex titanium 500 watt. Ordered one for redundancy and then accidentally ordered another on Amazon. I guess I had added it to my cart twice and didn't notice at checkout. Didn't send it back. You can never have too many heaters, am I right???

 

[mygsris2slo4u]

Good info, thanks. I'm, going to do some more exact calculations on the layout of plumbing before making my final decision. Already got a return label from BRS. I'll call this a lesson learned for the low low price of $9.99.

Good to know. Pretty sure I've read that they are quiet. They are definitely marketed as quiet. The Snapper/Dart gold is significantly quieter? Noise is not high on the priority list, but is always something to consider. As I finish the rest of the basement, people will be spending more and more time down there. There is a stairwell between the sump room and what will be occupied space though.

Don't drive yourself crazy on the calculations. Fitting losses should be taken into consideration, but unless you have dozens of 90 degree fittings I would take the vertical distance from your sump level to the return outlet in the tank and add a few feet to it.

6 1" 90 degree elbows would add 1.6 feet of head @ 600 gph assuming 9.6 ft/100ft pressure loss for 1 inch pvc.

Also, 2 45 degree fittings actually has a higher equivalent length than 1 90 degree fitting for 1 inch pvc.

Regarding the noise I guess it's all relative. It is not noticeable from the other side of the wall, but it does have a mechanical fan attached to the back end of the motor. Submersible pumps obviously do not.

 

[SeaJay]

Don't drive yourself crazy on the calculations. Fitting losses should be taken into consideration, but unless you have dozens of 90 degree fittings I would take the vertical distance from your sump level to the return outlet in the tank and add a few feet to it.

6 1" 90 degree elbows would add 1.6 feet of head @ 600 gph assuming 9.6 ft/100ft pressure loss for 1 inch pvc.

Also, 2 45 degree fittings actually has a higher equivalent length than 1 90 degree fitting for 1 inch pvc.

Regarding the noise I guess it's all relative. It is not noticeable from the other side of the wall, but it does have a mechanical fan attached to the back end of the motor. Submersible pumps obviously do not.

I have to cross the stairwell and up, so 6 elbows seems about right. I will run 1.5" upstairs if that also alleviates some of the friction loss.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I have 3 of the Finnex titanium 500 watt. Ordered one for redundancy and then accidentally ordered another on Amazon. I guess I had added it to my cart twice and didn't notice at checkout. Didn't send it back. You can never have too many heaters, am I right???

I run three heaters on my 180 gallon total volume system. Total of 350 watts. I don't use a controller. Running smaller heaters as a redundancy. If one would stick on, the others would just stay off. In this scenario would hopefully allow me to catch it and remove the heater without "cooking" my system.

We keep our house at 75 degrees during the winter months and the unfinished basement stays around 65-70.

Having any one heater larger than what your system allows would be running a risk without a controller.

 

[SeaJay]

If I add an APEX in the near future, will I regret having not gone with something controllable, like the red dragon?

 

[madweazl]

If I add an APEX in the near future, will I regret having not gone with something controllable, like the red dragon?

My personal opinion is that DC pumps and especially controllable pumps, are a large waste of money for returns. The controller is one more piece that can fail. There are Iwakis out there that have been running 30+ years. Spend the saved money on a different part of the aquarium where it may actually make a difference.

 

[Flippers4pups]

My personal opinion is that DC pumps and especially controllable pumps, are a large waste of money for returns. The controller is one more piece that can fail. There are Iwakis out there that have been running 30+ years. Spend the saved money on a different part of the aquarium where it may actually make a difference.

Basement sump applications I would definitely go pressure rated AC pumps for their reliability and track record. They are designed to push vertically for years and years.

 

[SeaJay]

My personal opinion is that DC pumps and especially controllable pumps, are a large waste of money for returns. The controller is one more piece that can fail. There are Iwakis out there that have been running 30+ years. Spend the saved money on a different part of the aquarium where it may actually make a difference.

Basement sump applications I would definitely go pressure rated AC pumps for their reliability and track record. They are designed to push vertically for years and years.

Well for once the recommendation is DON'T spend my money. That's refreshing.

 

[dwest]

I’m a cheapskate and use danner mag drives (an 18 and 12 I believe) from my basement sump to my tank. My sump is elevated off the floor several feet so I can work on everything easier and drain water when I want. I get about 3 turnovers per hour. In the past ive used an iwaki 40 as well. All great pumps.

 

[Robert M]

I’ve done this on my tank. Basement sump with 1.5” pvc split upstairs under the tank. The reasons for splitting upstairs rather than downstairs is 1) less pipe, 2) you will have less friction using a large diameter pipe than 2 small diameter pipes, 3) it will be much harder to break your siphon when you turn your pump off since you’d have to break the siphon in the basement if one return nozzle is pointed higher than the other.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Well for once the recommendation is DON'T spend my money. That's refreshing.

Just friendly advise. Not trying keep you from what you want. Respectfully.

 

[SeaJay]

This has been very educational. I appreciate all of the input. Wouldn't be learning what I'm learning without it.

Bottom line is that I really need the exact layout of my system with accurate measurements to know exactly how much pump I need. The MD-40RT has max flow of 822gph vs. the 1344 of the MD-40RXT, however at 14' head the RT out flows the RXT by 250+ gph. At 10' head, the exact opposite is true and the RXT outflows the RT by about 225gph... Thanks to you guys I now know how to figure it out.

Thanks!

Side note. I want a refugium in my sump. Instead of modifying the return chamber to house one, I think I'll just get a new sump, set up my sump room, plump it, measure, calculate the exact flow requirements and THEN order the new pump. At that point all I'll have to do is hook up the pump and switch the pipes over under the tank. Then I'll just sell all my old stuff. All of this requires something that I am generally short on. Patience...