Neptune Trident OR Mindstream

[ShadowR55]

The code is MACNA2019Attendee for $300 off, anyone that doesn’t have an automated alkalinity tester and SPS should definitely get one. Wether it’s the Trident or Mindstream

 

[saltyhog]

I didn't hear Melev say anything about comparison to ICP testing results. Has anyone done that yet?

 

[Centerline]

Not disagreeing - but 'why?' what makes the Mg Ca Alk monitoring capability of the Trident better than Mindstream?

Not really what I intended to imply. I would actually be pretty surprised if the Mindstream didn't work as advertised. As a matter of fact it does a lot of cool stuff that the Trident doesn't. But I have three tanks all controlled by Apex units. Each with DOS units and it greatly simplifies my life.

 

[rushbattle]

I didn't hear Melev say anything about comparison to ICP testing results. Has anyone done that yet?

My opinion and impression is that the MM would be the benchmark, not ICP. ICP as used by the hobby has quite a few issues as outlined in @Thales and Dr. Chris Maupin’s excellent article in Skeptical Reefkeeping.

Skeptical Reefkeeping 12: Triton Lab ICP-OES Testing of a Certified Artificial Saltwater Standard

From ReefsMagazine By Rich Ross and Dr. Chris Maupin At MACNA 25 in Denver, the potential for the new ICP-OES aquarium water testing by Triton Lab in Germany made many saltwater hobbyists swoon. Th…

packedhead.net

 

[Centerline]

Well - actually - he said 'the trident is worth the wait' - (to me that implies its better to wait for the trident rather than order the mindstream) - thats what I was wondering about - not his tanks - but in general - why wait for the trident over the Mindstream? On the rest - I have an apex - but I have no desire to have it control anything - except when I 'click' the button on the App - thats why I'm fine with the Mindstream. I just wanted his opinion.

I hope I clarified my statement. If not, there appears to be absolutely nothing wrong with a Mindstream all things being equal. I own a business that requires a solid 80 hours a week and welcome reliable automation for my tanks. The Apex coupled with a Trident and DOS pumps does that for me. I still manually test a couple of times a week but nothing like I used to. I may even consider purchasing a Mindstream or two as a way to "at a glance" insure the continued accuracy of the Tridents on two of my tanks.

 

[Thales]

I have been thinking a lot about comparing testing devices. It's a crazy thing because they all have their margins of error and ratios and scales. I am looking for trending and using my animals as the calibration - when I think everything looks good, I test with the different tests and see where they fall and use that number for each device rather than an number from another device. I want them to trend in parallel, and if that happens, I can use any of them.

 

[Centerline]

My opinion and impression is that the MM would be the benchmark, not ICP. ICP as used by the hobby has quite a few issues as outlined in @Thales and Dr. Chris Maupin’s excellent article in Skeptical Reefkeeping.

Skeptical Reefkeeping 12: Triton Lab ICP-OES Testing of a Certified Artificial Saltwater Standard

From ReefsMagazine By Rich Ross and Dr. Chris Maupin At MACNA 25 in Denver, the potential for the new ICP-OES aquarium water testing by Triton Lab in Germany made many saltwater hobbyists swoon. Th…

packedhead.net

What is the "MM"? Mindstream?

 

[Thales]

My opinion and impression is that the MM would be the benchmark, not ICP. ICP as used by the hobby has quite a few issues as outlined in @Thales and Dr. Chris Maupin’s excellent article in Skeptical Reefkeeping.

Skeptical Reefkeeping 12: Triton Lab ICP-OES Testing of a Certified Artificial Saltwater Standard

From ReefsMagazine By Rich Ross and Dr. Chris Maupin At MACNA 25 in Denver, the potential for the new ICP-OES aquarium water testing by Triton Lab in Germany made many saltwater hobbyists swoon. Th…

packedhead.net

Thanks! I don't know what the benchmark is. See my response above. Sorry I didn't post it here!

 

[rushbattle]

I have been thinking a lot about comparing testing devices. It's a crazy thing because they all have their margins of error and ratios and scales. I am looking for trending and using my animals as the calibration - when I think everything looks good, I test with the different tests and see where they fall and use that number for each device rather than an number from another device. I want them to trend in parallel, and if that happens, I can use any of them.

Yes, this exactly!

 

[rushbattle]

Thanks! I don't know what the benchmark is. See my response above. Sorry I didn't post it here!

I agree. I didn’t make my point very well, I was just trying to say that ICP testing as done by hobby oriented labs isn’t a superlative standard by which all other seawater testing should be judged. My guess would be that @JimWelsh and @MindStream folks have built devices that are excellent and are not inferior to ICP, not to mention that ICP inherently cannot measure alkalinity. To be clear, I am not putting down ICP testing, I think it can be useful.

 

[rushbattle]

What is the "MM"? Mindstream?

Yes, Mindstream Monitor.

 

[ctbehm]

The code is MACNA2019Attendee for $300 off, anyone that doesn’t have an automated alkalinity tester and SPS should definitely get one. Wether it’s the Trident or Mindstream

Code does not work FYI

 

[1mbrews8]

Code does not work FYI

It expired at 12am last night/this morn

 

[Centerline]

Yes, Mindstream Monitor.

Do you mean Mindstream as a broader hobby wide benchmark? I certainly would not suggest a Trident in that context. The trident is at times off by as much as a few percentage points against its own calibration fluid. I suspect microbubbles. And thats another good thing about the Mindstream - no fiddling around with intake tube placement or worrying about the reservoir filling up.

 

[Thales]

There is no 'international atomic time' for saltwater tests. There is no device that is the 'benchmark'. I think this is the thing we have to stop searching for and instead, understand the limits and ranges of our tests, and report results in ranges.
The shorthand for saying 'My salinity is 34' gives a flase impression because you never really know what your salinity actually is just that the device you tested it on gave you that number. That doesn't take into account the +/-. Even with the Misco I use there is +/-1 so I really should say that my salinity is between 33 and 35. Same for other parameters.

 

[rushbattle]

Do you mean Mindstream as a broader hobby wide benchmark? I certainly would not suggest a Trident in that context. The trident is at times off by as much as a few percentage points against its own calibration fluid. I suspect microbubbles. And thats another good thing about the Mindstream - no fiddling around with intake tube placement or worrying about the reservoir filling up.

I was not clear, as I mentioned above. What I was trying to say is that ICP testing is not a superlative standard by which others can be judged, it’s just as likely that the Trident and MM are at least as good or better. Nobody knows because we haven’t fully characterized their performance yet. My guess is that ICP, MM, and Trident are really good with Ca and Mg. I also suspect that MM and ICP are good at K. What I really care about is whether they correlate with what we are seeing with regards to the animals.

 

[rushbattle]

There is no 'international atomic time' for saltwater tests. There is no device that is the 'benchmark'. I think this is the thing we have to stop searching for and instead, understand the limits and ranges of our tests, and report results in ranges.
The shorthand for saying 'My salinity is 34' gives a flase impression because you never really know what your salinity actually is just that the device you tested it on gave you that number. That doesn't take into account the +/-. Even with the Misco I use there is +/-1 so I really should say that my salinity is between 33 and 35. Same for other parameters.

@Centerline As usual, you can trust Rich to give a more poignant and insightful answer than me. I have the same thoughts but my thinking and writing are not clear or as straight the the heart of the matter like Rich’s.

 

[MnFish1]

There is no 'international atomic time' for saltwater tests. There is no device that is the 'benchmark'. I think this is the thing we have to stop searching for and instead, understand the limits and ranges of our tests, and report results in ranges.
The shorthand for saying 'My salinity is 34' gives a flase impression because you never really know what your salinity actually is just that the device you tested it on gave you that number. That doesn't take into account the +/-. Even with the Misco I use there is +/-1 so I really should say that my salinity is between 33 and 35. Same for other parameters.

What I find surprising is that though most of the companies tout the 'precision' of their devices - they do not mention the 'accuracy' of their devices Some give the impression that because the precision is .05 - that that means alkalinity is measured accurately to .05 (or pick another chemical). Point being the accuracy of the Mindstream is better than hanna, saldiert, etc - We dont know about trident (at least I couldn't find any data on alkalinity accuracy (on the main page - it states accuracy and precision to (I believe .05 dkH) - but in the more detailed section - accuracy is not mentioned - and precision is stated to be .05 dKh.

 

[User1]

It expired at 12am last night/this morn

Those trying to purchase I would strongly urge you to send them an email and say look, couldn't attend, tried the code, and it is expired. See what they will do. Typically most people will honor the code + or - a couple days.

Doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[User1]

@Centerline As usual, you can trust Rich to give a more poignant and insightful answer than me. I have the same thoughts but my thinking and writing are not clear or as straight the the heart of the matter like Rich’s.

Sounds like maybe he should queue this up as a future podcast

And if he and his better half drink wine I may have to leave a bottle for him the next time I visit the aquarium.