New Bacteria Product . . . hmmmm

I am hoping for more products like this that focus more on the coral microbiome since. Microbiomes play huge roles in species. Thanks for sharing :)
Every fish, rock and coral that you put in your tank, and every puff of air that comes into the room deposits bacteria and spores into your tank.

I think long term, most end up being pretty similar in similarly stocked and maintained systems. Certain stuff thrives in our captive environments and certain stuff doesn't.

A teaspoon of sand from a local reefer, or from 10 different local reefers or adding coral and fish is the same thing and there you actually can't get around it. Not that there is anything wrong with the a bottle.... but I don't see the panacea.
 
So if this is dumped into tank then how can it bring nitrates down if there's oxygen in the tank?
This occurs through three or four processes, actually. The first is through their direct uptake of dissolved nitrogenous organic matter. But they can (like most bacteria) assimilate inorganic nitrogen as well (e.g., ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). Unlike most other bacteria, however, they are additionally capable of performing denitrification.

Rhodopseudomonas is famous among biologists for its high level of metabolic adaptability, being capable of utilizing all four major modes of metabolism; that being said, it is most successful as a photoheterotroph. It survives in the presence of oxygen (at least as a chemoheterotroph), but fares much better in an anaerobic environment. One reason for this is that it can only perform denitrification in an anaerobic environment. Its ability to perform denitrification is enhanced in illuminated conditions. Incidentally, it cannot photosynthesize in the presence of oxygen--yes, weird; its very ancient form of photosynthesis doesn't generate oxygen, either, and is referred to as anoxygenic photosynthesis.

But more to the point, when you pour these bacteria into the tank, they swim (they are flagellated and quite motile) away from oxygen and toward light, ending up in habitats such as the thin, microaerobic but partially illuminated area just below the sand bed surface or in deep pockets of the rock. These are very unusual organisms, so their metabolism can be confusing, but I hope that helps!
 
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This occurs through three or four processes, actually. The first is through their direct uptake of dissolved nitrogenous organic matter. But they can (like most bacteria) assimilate inorganic nitrogen as well (e.g., ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). Unlike most other bacteria, however, they are additionally capable of performing denitrification.

Rhodopseudomonas is famous among biologists for its high level of metabolic adaptability, being capable of utilizing all four major modes of metabolism; that being said, it is most successful as a photoheterotroph. It survives in the presence of oxygen (at least as a chemoheterotroph), but fares much better in an anaerobic environment. One reason for this is that it can only perform denitrification in an anaerobic environment. Its ability to perform denitrification is enhanced in illuminated conditions. Incidentally, it cannot photosynthesize in the presence of oxygen--yes, weird; its very ancient form of photosynthesis doesn't generate oxygen, either, and is referred to as anoxygenic photosynthesis.

But more to the point, when you pour these bacteria into the tank, they swim (they are flagellated and quite motile) away from oxygen and toward light, ending up in habitats such as the thin, microaerobic but partially illuminated area just below the sand bed surface or in deep pockets of the rock. These are very unusual organisms, so their metabolism can be confusing, but I hope that helps!
Inboxed you
 
Every fish, rock and coral that you put in your tank, and every puff of air that comes into the room deposits bacteria and spores into your tank.

I think long term, most end up being pretty similar in similarly stocked and maintained systems. Certain stuff thrives in our captive environments and certain stuff doesn't.

A teaspoon of sand from a local reefer, or from 10 different local reefers or adding coral and fish is the same thing and there you actually can't get around it. Not that there is anything wrong with the a bottle.... but I don't see the panacea.
All good points! And to your main point, I agree, not all microbial species we introduce into our systems (whether in a bottle or on a rock) persist. Interestingly, studies suggest that even among the microbiota that live in or on wild corals, diversity actually decreases over the life of the colony.

I don't speak for manufacturers of other so-called bacteria-in-a-bottle products. As far as I'm aware, nobody (at least in the States) offers a product that is anything like ours. We deal exclusively in purple non-sulfur bacteria (for more details refer to the video linked at the beginning of the thread), including Rhodopseudomonas, Rhodospirillum and Rhodobacter. These are shown to be extremely abundant on wild reefs; however, according to findings published by Aquabiomics, this group is absent from what Dr. Meyer calls the 'core aquarium microbiome' (note that not all Rhodobacteraceae are purple non-sulfurs). Purple non-sulfur bacteria are extraordinarily adaptable and hardy, so a plausible explanation for their scarcity in captive environments is competitive exclusion (in this case by other bacteria that are, for some reason, better suited to typical aquarium conditions). Given that these microbes are naturally abundant on healthy reefs, and that they perform important ecological roles there, we believe that adding them to aquaria makes good sense not simply despite the fact that that tend not to persist, but precisely because they tend not to persist. In other words, we see them as a re-set button that (at least in part) restores the microbiome to something more like what we'd expect to see on a wild reef.

All that aside, we consider our products primarily to be live microplanktonic foods. And, studies demonstrate that corals do consume these bacteria in the wild. Their nutritional content (which is extensively characterized in the scientific literature) is excellent. Though superficially similar to phytoplankton, they are comparatively higher in protein and certain fatty acids that tend to lacking in many other sources (e.g., oleic acid). They are also more digestible than phyto. They're not perfect (no single food ever seems to be): Studies do show that they are lacking in certain essential fatty acids. For this reason, the findings in one study indicate that Rhodopseudomonas and phyto are nutritionally complementary and thus provide better nourishment together than either provides by itself. Altogether, these bacteria known to be a valuable source of nutrition to corals and other marinelife in Nature, including fishes (as a probiotic).

The microbiome, whether in an aquarium or in the wild, is a numbers game. That's why I went at length to emphasize firstly that the main use of these products (at least PNS ProBio and PNS YelloSno) are as a food. As with phytoplankton and zooplankton, many aquarists must introduce microplankton (i.e., bacterioplankton) since populations within the tank are insufficient to meet the dietary needs of many planktivores (of course the degree to which this is an issue varies from system to system). So yeah, the point here is to add a concentrated feed containing a known nutritious and harmless bacterioplankter (by the way, many if not most biologists claim that bacterioplankton, not zooplankton or phytoplankton, make up the majority of most corals' planktonic diet). Many might say in reply that they they've done just fine without adding live microplanktonic foods; to that I'd say, that's perfectly fine, I believe you, and that's totally cool. We simply believe a coral (and other bacteriovores for that matter) are healthier with the addition of a microbial food source generally--and with these bacteria in particular.

I'll address one more thing from your statements though, if I may. It's true that various types of bacteria will find their way into an aquarium (the air, hands, allow with new animals, etc.). It's interesting that you mention spores; these are non-sporiform species, which could be one reason they do not as readily appear/persist in aquaria. I never thought of that, but it could account for at least some part of their typical scarcity. But I do know from bringing microbial samples back from overseas that some of these microbes die off simply because they don't travel well. That, I believe, could contribute to a massive loss of microbiotic diversity on live rock--maybe another reason certain microbes don't show up in our tanks, even if they're abundant in the wild. (Another potential plus for certain bottled products?) By the way, don't get me wrong, I LOVE live rock and lament that its availability is a joke compared to what it was in the mid-late 90s. I just don't think that bottled products and live rock are mutually exclusive. Live rock is great for adding overall diversity, and also complete microbial guilds (i.e., groups of unrelated species that benefit from or even depend on each other), whereas bottled products introduce massive populations of highly desirable species (particularly if they tend not to thrive captivity) or of course as a natural live food.

Sorry that was long, but you made a lot of great points. Thanks!
 
All good points! And to your main point, I agree, not all microbial species we introduce into our systems (whether in a bottle or on a rock) persist. Interestingly, studies suggest that even among the microbiota that live in or on wild corals, diversity actually decreases over the life of the colony.

I don't speak for manufacturers of other so-called bacteria-in-a-bottle products. As far as I'm aware, nobody (at least in the States) offers a product that is anything like ours. We deal exclusively in purple non-sulfur bacteria (for more details refer to the video linked at the beginning of the thread), including Rhodopseudomonas, Rhodospirillum and Rhodobacter. These are shown to be extremely abundant on wild reefs; however, according to findings published by Aquabiomics, this group is absent from what Dr. Meyer calls the 'core aquarium microbiome' (note that not all Rhodobacteraceae are purple non-sulfurs). Purple non-sulfur bacteria are extraordinarily adaptable and hardy, so a plausible explanation for their scarcity in captive environments is competitive exclusion (in this case by other bacteria that are, for some reason, better suited to typical aquarium conditions). Given that these microbes are naturally abundant on healthy reefs, and that they perform important ecological roles there, we believe that adding them to aquaria makes good sense not simply despite the fact that that tend not to persist, but precisely because they tend not to persist. In other words, we see them as a re-set button that (at least in part) restores the microbiome to something more like what we'd expect to see on a wild reef.

All that aside, we consider our products primarily to be live microplanktonic foods. And, studies demonstrate that corals do consume these bacteria in the wild. Their nutritional content (which is extensively characterized in the scientific literature) is excellent. Though superficially similar to phytoplankton, they are comparatively higher in protein and certain fatty acids that tend to lacking in many other sources (e.g., oleic acid). They are also more digestible than phyto. They're not perfect (no single food ever seems to be): Studies do show that they are lacking in certain essential fatty acids. For this reason, the findings in one study indicate that Rhodopseudomonas and phyto are nutritionally complementary and thus provide better nourishment together than either provides by itself. Altogether, these bacteria known to be a valuable source of nutrition to corals and other marinelife in Nature, including fishes (as a probiotic).

The microbiome, whether in an aquarium or in the wild, is a numbers game. That's why I went at length to emphasize firstly that the main use of these products (at least PNS ProBio and PNS YelloSno) are as a food. As with phytoplankton and zooplankton, many aquarists must introduce microplankton (i.e., bacterioplankton) since populations within the tank are insufficient to meet the dietary needs of many planktivores (of course the degree to which this is an issue varies from system to system). So yeah, the point here is to add a concentrated feed containing a known nutritious and harmless bacterioplankter (by the way, many if not most biologists claim that bacterioplankton, not zooplankton or phytoplankton, make up the majority of most corals' planktonic diet). Many might say in reply that they they've done just fine without adding live microplanktonic foods; to that I'd say, that's perfectly fine, I believe you, and that's totally cool. We simply believe a coral (and other bacteriovores for that matter) are healthier with the addition of a microbial food source generally--and with these bacteria in particular.

I'll address one more thing from your statements though, if I may. It's true that various types of bacteria will find their way into an aquarium (the air, hands, allow with new animals, etc.). It's interesting that you mention spores; these are non-sporiform species, which could be one reason they do not as readily appear/persist in aquaria. I never thought of that, but it could account for at least some part of their typical scarcity. But I do know from bringing microbial samples back from overseas that some of these microbes die off simply because they don't travel well. That, I believe, could contribute to a massive loss of microbiotic diversity on live rock--maybe another reason certain microbes don't show up in our tanks, even if they're abundant in the wild. (Another potential plus for certain bottled products?) By the way, don't get me wrong, I LOVE live rock and lament that its availability is a joke compared to what it was in the mid-late 90s. I just don't think that bottled products and live rock are mutually exclusive. Live rock is great for adding overall diversity, and also complete microbial guilds (i.e., groups of unrelated species that benefit from or even depend on each other), whereas bottled products introduce massive populations of highly desirable species (particularly if they tend not to thrive captivity) or of course as a natural live food.

Sorry that was long, but you made a lot of great points. Thanks!
Thank you for the very informative reply.

Two simple questions:
1 - have you studied the average population half-life or other declination milestones? I.E. how often for an average given volume does your product need to be dosed to remain at a somewhat steady state?

2 - Have you done any studies on similar system with and without UV filtration to determine if the UV decimates or otherwise affects the population (assuming it is water column based more than surface based).
 
Thank you for the very informative reply.

Two simple questions:
1 - have you studied the average population half-life or other declination milestones? I.E. how often for an average given volume does your product need to be dosed to remain at a somewhat steady state?

2 - Have you done any studies on similar system with and without UV filtration to determine if the UV decimates or otherwise affects the population (assuming it is water column based more than surface based).
No, we actually haven't studied either of those. Issue 1. would depend way too much on the individual system; the rate of input of organic matter, nutrients, trace elements, etc. as well as rate of export via filtration and water exchange. Not to mention degree of grazing pressure from corals and other planktivores, competition with other microbes, etc. Then, how much habitable anaerobic/illuminated space is available? Even temperature has a massive effect. Just too many factors.

On issue 2. we just run on the assumption that UV at a low dose (i.e., water clarification) is sufficiently bactericidal to wipe these guys out. Doesn't mean it kills them all though--most mature cells exist in biofilms. It's the young cells that are motile. These swimming cells (i.e., daughter cells) are the ones that may be consumed by planktivorous critters (protists, pods, corals, clams, sponges, etc.), exported through the skimmer or killed by UV.
 
What were nitrates before
My nitrates were up and down when my tank was young. I have been dosing PNS for over a year now and my nitrates stay consistent month after month now at 10 to 12. I do water changes every 3 to 4 weeks now. I have a heavy bioload of fish and corals along with a fuge and oversized skimmer.
 
My nitrates were up and down when my tank was young. I have been dosing PNS for over a year now and my nitrates stay consistent month after month now at 10 to 12. I do water changes every 3 to 4 weeks now. I have a heavy bioload of fish and corals along with a fuge and oversized skimmer.
You don't think that's due to tank maturity
 
You don't think that's due to tank maturity
I'm sure that plays a role but with 12 fish, 3 shrimp, 3 urchins, 2 starfish, bunch of crabs and snails along with probably 75 corals, I feed fish heavy 2 to 3 times daily and corals various additives during the week my nitrates should probably be much higher for a 65g DT with 15g sump. I have good export but the PNS breaks down the organic waste before it becomes an export excess nutrient.
 
Every fish, rock and coral that you put in your tank, and every puff of air that comes into the room deposits bacteria and spores into your tank.

I think long term, most end up being pretty similar in similarly stocked and maintained systems. Certain stuff thrives in our captive environments and certain stuff doesn't.

A teaspoon of sand from a local reefer, or from 10 different local reefers or adding coral and fish is the same thing and there you actually can't get around it. Not that there is anything wrong with the a bottle.... but I don't see the panacea.


I don't believe there is anything to back that claim when it comes to coral microbiomes. I am not talking about the general microbial makeup of a tank, but that which lives in and on corals (of which is not samples by things like aquabiomics, which is what I believe you may be referencing to with what you stated, of which I agree)
 

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