New Bacteria Product . . . hmmmm

[VanDalsenReef]

Can you define respectable levels as in numbers?

Nitrates 2-8, p04 under 0.06

 

[vetteguy53081]

Nitrates 2-8, p04 under 0.06

Close to what I run. Im going to give this a shot

 

[VanDalsenReef]

Close to what I run. Im going to give this a shot

Only reason I tried it was the fact it has data to support it.

 

[Lavey29]

The principal, Kenneth, is nice and very helpful in responding to questions and providing accurate info. As others have noted, so nice to have a vendor share detailed info on the organisms they sell without obfuscation.

Totally agree with this. Very professional and polite to speak with about his products. My local LFS just started carrying PNS also.

 

[VanDalsenReef]

Totally agree with this. Very professional and polite to speak with about his products. My local LFS just started carrying PNS also.

Great guy. Helped me navigate and understand what I was buying

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

They actually have scientific articles on their products. Not these stupid and sketchy "proprietary blends" like dr.tim or brightwrll or really any other company. I have no problem calling them out. Probably will get banned cause that's mean to the mods but oh well.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding that comment, but just to be clear, Reef2Reef never bans anyone for politely expressing opinions on products or companies.

I’m a moderator and I blast a number of companies on a regular basis. Many deserve criticism.

 

[VanDalsenReef]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding that comment, but just to be clear, Reef2Reef never bans anyone for politely expressing opinions on products or companies.

I’m a moderator and I blast a number of companies on a regular basis. Many deserve criticism.

Isn't it frustrating as well then when companies don't bring forward data or "ingredients " for a pack of a better term

 

[Lavey29]

Isn't it frustrating as well then when companies don't bring forward data or "ingredients " for a pack of a better term

True but what if they are trying to preserve proprietary uniqueness?

 

[VanDalsenReef]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding that comment, but just to be clear, Reef2Reef never bans anyone for politely expressing opinions on products or companies.

I’m a moderator and I blast a number of companies on a regular basis. Many deserve criticism.

I also feel like I misunderstood myself here. I think I'm just tired of companies not "coming clean" which I totally get. You want to stay ahead of competition but I also think explaining your product entirely can also push you ahead of competition. I'm am sorry that earlier comment came off worse than I thought now looking at it.

 

[Dan_P]

This is the PNS bacteria that @Kenneth Wingerter has talked about a few times on here. It's very interesting. No idea if it does anything measurable that could distinguish it from other bacterial additives.
@Dan_P you know me. This stuff has a unique spectrum (an unusual Chlorophyll that I've never seen any sign of in my system) so there's an experiment in my head where I could look at the stuff in the bottle and then dose a system with it for a set time and see if that particular chlorophyll is detectable in any of the niches in my system some time later. I have cyano that grows on the totally anoxic - but lit from below - bottom of my glass, so there are niches that seem suited for this bacteria.

Great! I knew you would shine some light on this product

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Isn't it frustrating as well then when companies don't bring forward data or "ingredients " for a pack of a better term

Absolutely. Some certainly don’t have any supporting data because it is a bogus claim, and others claim to have evidence that we would like to evaluate for ourselves, but it is never provided.

 

[VanDalsenReef]

Absolutely. Some certainly don’t have any supporting data because it is a bogus claim, and others claim to have evidence that we would like to evaluate for ourselves, but it is never provided.

"Data coming soon"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

True but what if they are trying to preserve proprietary uniqueness?

That’s fair, and it becomes a matter of trust. Showing data for the claimed benefit without revealing exact ingredients can build that trust.

The bar is pretty low. I tend to trust companies that at least never get caught making crazy or wrong claims, even if they provide no data. ESV and Tropic Marin seem in that category to me. A great many others fail that simple test.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Anaerobic bacteria that photosynthesizes? How does it do that if it lives deep in anaerobic areas?

Yes, they live just below the surface where oxygen is depleted to some degree but light still penetrates. They're adapted to low-light conditions; they can even utilize near-infrared. You'd be even more impressed with the green sulfur bacteria (GSB), which only require about one quarter of the light intensity that these purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) do. PNSB can survive and grow in aerobic environments (strictly heterotrophically), but cannot perform photosynthesis nor denitrification in the presence of oxygen. https://www.vumc.org/viiii/sites/de...GAMicrobe/Winogradsky Column Instructions.pdf

 

[biom]

True but what if they are trying to preserve proprietary uniqueness?

There are so many companies outside the reefing world that also producing additives and other products and are clear with ingredients and this companies are still on the market and flourishing.
I was wondering why reefing companies are so secretive?

1) Because they are afraid competition will start producing similar product on a lower price? That is actually nonsense if you are in the business it will take less than a day to break in and analyse a new product of a competitive company. @Randy Holmes-Farley can tell you how it is in pharmaceutical business And most of the reef products are so simple that chemical analysts found them so boring to analyse (I am citing here someone who is unfortunately not very active in the forums lately).

2) Because they are afraid if the consumers find out that certain product is only vinegar + some ammonium chloride they will not be able to sell 20 ml of it for 20$? Quite possible.

3) Because if they reveal ingredients of their product will become clear that it is actually DIY recipe published in forums like R2R? Quite possible I am sure you can find many such an examples.

4) Because they don't know or understand how their product works, and if they reveal ingredients somebody like Randy or @taricha in R2R will challenge them to explain how it works which they don't know. that also happens quite often right?

I think the answer is cobination of 2),3) and 4)

 

[KStatefan]

MileHighReefers had a video on it a couple years ago.

 

[I never finish anythi]

They actually have scientific articles on their products. Not these stupid and sketchy "proprietary blends" like dr.tim or brightwrll or really any other company. I have no problem calling them out. Probably will get banned cause that's mean to the mods but oh well.

I'm sure you are entitled to you're opinion.

 

[Lavey29]

There are so many companies outside the reefing world that also producing additives and other products and are clear with ingredients and this companies are still on the market and flourishing.
I was wondering why reefing companies are so secretive?

1) Because they are afraid competition will start producing similar product on a lower price? That is actually nonsense if you are in the business it will take less than a day to break in and analyse a new product of a competitive company. @Randy Holmes-Farley can tell you how it is in pharmaceutical business And most of the reef products are so simple that chemical analysts found them so boring to analyse (I am citing here someone who is unfortunately not very active in the forums lately).

2) Because they are afraid if the consumers find out that certain product is only vinegar + some ammonium chloride they will not be able to sell 20 ml of it for 20$? Quite possible.

3) Because if they reveal ingredients of their product will become clear that it is actually DIY recipe published in forums like R2R? Quite possible I am sure you can find many such an examples.

4) Because they don't know or understand how their product works, and if they reveal ingredients somebody like Randy or @taricha in R2R will challenge them to explain how it works which they don't know. that also happens quite often right?

I think the answer is cobination of 2),3) and 4)

I'm trying to figure out how the can call chicken processed corn dogs "real beef flavored corn dogs"

 

[Heres_doe_]

Exactly, a good list from my point of view. The main thing that I've always liked with it is the handling of organic waste. My sock used to be black after 3 or 4 days. It stays completely white for several weeks now. I've had great coral growth the past year but I can't say it is directly connected to PNS. I have no cyano and virtually no algae at all except minor traces of diatoms on my sand due to silica. I dose 50ml once a week. I like the product for ease of use and no fridge needed. My nitrates stay consistent at 10 to 12. I wish it worked better on phosphate too.

What were nitrates before

 

[Heres_doe_]

PNSB can survive and grow in aerobic environments (strictly heterotrophically), but cannot perform photosynthesis nor denitrification in the presence of oxygen.

So if this is dumped into tank then how can it bring nitrates down if there's oxygen in the tank?