nitrates and sps

Jmcdaniel0 · Dec 22, 2015

with @Mark75 and @cee issues with nitrate levels in their SPS tanks, I thought this discussion could be beneficial. Adam over at Battle Corals has some interesting points

http://reef2reef.com/threads/sps-su...lly-finished-this-thing-sort-of.216694/page-2

CastAway · Dec 22, 2015

I confess, I'm confused by it all. I mean, in about two years now, the most nitrate I've ever measured in my system is maybe 1ppm. I remember that because I wasn't really convinced there was any color shift at all, but wrote down 1 anyway.

Yet, I have thriving macro algae and nuisance micro algae, so I figure there HAS to be nitrate even though I can't measure it in a test. I think, and I'm totally not sure of this, that this is what they call a "sync" or "sink".

If this is true, does it mean I should get rid of my macro's and trust that the coral will become the sink?

Someone help me out here.

And surely we don't want any PO4, right? I mean even the smallest amounts of PO4 inhibit calcification, right? Or, is the PO4 sinked up as well?

Ugh!

Rob.D · Dec 22, 2015

I don't know about your sink but I do believe the whole having detectable nitrates and phos is a good thing........not sure I'm going to type out an entire article to explain the deal to you, so maybe you could take my word for it and stop being a pain in the backside!

CastAway · Dec 22, 2015

.......and what really confuses me is that if a dink is what I think it is, and equilibrium between nutrient debit and nutrient supply, then doesn't this mean that detectable nitrate would be an excess beyond the sink, and be problematic?

Jmcdaniel0 · Dec 22, 2015

I dont know Jeff. Adam at Battle Corals knows his stuff, ya know. Then again, I do not know enough about reef chemistry and acropora physiology to really give a straight answer. I know I have never had a 0 nutrient system. But, I truly feel some nutrients are required, I mean sea water is certainly not nutrient free.

CastAway · Dec 22, 2015

Rob.D said:
I don't know about your sink but I do believe the whole having detectable nitrates and phos is a good thing........not sure I'm going to type out an entire article to explain the deal to you, so maybe you could take my word for it and stop being a pain in the backside!

Not me man. Wrong guy.

I guess I'll quit trying to understand it, and just add stump remover till I measure nitrates. Thanks man!

CastAway · Dec 22, 2015

Jmcdaniel0 said:
I dont know Jeff. Adam at Battle Corals knows his stuff, ya know. Then again, I do not know enough about reef chemistry and acropora physiology to really give a straight answer. I know I have never had a 0 nutrient system. But, I truly feel some nutrients are required, I mean sea water is certainly not nutrient free.

I think a coral reef is practically sterile though.

Jmcdaniel0 · Dec 22, 2015

is it? i will look that up.

Jmcdaniel0 · Dec 22, 2015

I found this, according to stanford NSW has Phosphates and Nitrates bound within it. Not much mind you. However, I would have to believe that a Coral Reef has some amount of Nitrates and Phosphates, due to all of its inhabitants.

cb684 · Dec 22, 2015

Likely NO3 and PO4 are not bad or good. I mean, they are good, but what we think is too much of them might not be as bad as what people believe. There are likely other "elements" (maybe organic molecules, maybe the microfauna in the system) that will be important in defining how the system will respond to the "high" NO3 and PO4.

Pete polyp · Dec 22, 2015

I can tell you from experience a true 0 nitrate system will kill acropora. Just a trace can make a huge difference. You are stating that you are growing algae and that won't happen without nitrate. Your tank will actually starve the algae and consume it over time. A softball size chunk of cheato lasted a little over 2 months in my tank until it completely disappeared. A TRACE is all you need to make acropora happy. I saw a HUGE difference from 0 to 0.5ppm. Acro went from pale and being dormant (if not dying) to vibrant colored and growing. I'm sure you could use corals as a sink, but it would take a massive amount for the normal system. By normal I mean a tank that is showing signs of nutrients while using a skimmer.

Mark75 · Dec 22, 2015

Measuring "free" nitrates only tells us what is left after the tank uses what it needs, not what the tank is producing.

If you have a thriving colorful tank and it always measures 0 nitrates your tank could be producing and consuming huge amounts of nitrates you will never see on a test kit.

The problem is our test will not measure a lack of or negative nitrates, so if you measure zero nitrates you are left guessing whether your tank is producing and consuming what it needs or your tank is lacking in nitrates.

Maintaining a positive reading confirms there is enough nitrates. Is there any advantage to having a surplus of nitrates, 2ppm, 5ppm? I do not know ?

This is only my interpretation of the information I have read and I am in no way an expert,...please correct me if I am wrong.

CastAway · Dec 22, 2015

Mark75 said:
Measuring "free" nitrates only tells us what is left after the tank uses what it needs, not what the tank is producing.

If you have a thriving colorful tank and it always measures 0 nitrates your tank could be producing and consuming huge amounts of nitrates you will never see on a test kit.

The problem is our test will not measure a lack of or negative nitrates, so if you measure zero nitrates you are left guessing whether your tank is producing and consuming what it needs or your tank is lacking in nitrates.

Maintaining a positive reading confirms there is enough nitrates. Is there any advantage to having a surplus of nitrates, 2ppm, 5ppm? I do not know ?

This is only my interpretation of the information I have read and I am in no way an expert,...please correct me if I am wrong.

This seems very logical and makes sense to me. [emoji4]

Steve Dillon · Dec 22, 2015

We need to have frags all the same and keep track of the nitrates and phosphate and see if one does better than others.. we seem to all run our tanks at different levels..

Steve Dillon · Dec 22, 2015

Mark75 said:
Measuring "free" nitrates only tells us what is left after the tank uses what it needs, not what the tank is producing.

If you have a thriving colorful tank and it always measures 0 nitrates your tank could be producing and consuming huge amounts of nitrates you will never see on a test kit.

The problem is our test will not measure a lack of or negative nitrates, so if you measure zero nitrates you are left guessing whether your tank is producing and consuming what it needs or your tank is lacking in nitrates.

Maintaining a positive reading confirms there is enough nitrates. Is there any advantage to having a surplus of nitrates, 2ppm, 5ppm? I do not know ?

This is only my interpretation of the information I have read and I am in no way an expert,...please correct me if I am wrong.

If this is the case then at 10 ppm I should be able to add a sps coral and it would lower my nitrates.. but it doesnt live longer than a few weeks.. so would that not be against logic? I would love to learn more and maybe someday be able to keep sps..

Rob.D · Dec 22, 2015

Steve Dillon said:
We need to have frags all the same and keep track of the nitrates and phosphate and see if one does better than others.. we seem to all run our tanks at different levels..

There are a million variables but I'd like to try this again......basically it's a grow out contest, R2R sponsored one last year.

Steve Dillon · Dec 22, 2015

I would like to do it.. if I bought like a 5 inch sps from like divers den would someone frag it out? I dont know how to do it..

Steve Dillon · Dec 22, 2015

We would have to get groups of people who use the same salt. Then the other things like dosing or not and what brand additives would be the variables... might be a job to organize

BradB · Dec 22, 2015

My experience has been that I only see 0 nitrate when my system is nitrate limited. This allows phosphate to accumulate, feeds algea and starves coral. I am much more comfortable seeing 5pm nitrate than lower, although I certainly understand more serious sps people wanting less. With 5ppm nitrate and sps lighting, I know I have 0 phosphate at all times as any phosphate rapidly turns into algea.

Lots of algea is probably why you have low nitrates. Try tuning or upgrading your skimmer, try a low range hanna phosphate test.

Steve Dillon · Dec 22, 2015

In my bio cube I know I have phosphate but dont know the level.. I have slight algea growth.. my nitrates are kind of high at 10 ppm but the lps likes it. I also have zoas, gsp, and a finger leather that all are growing great.. my frogspawn is actually branching out. So like the guy in that video said if it works leave it alone..