No love for MH?

[DeniseAndy]

Hi Everyone,

I have used halide + t5 for a very long time, and had planned on using them for my "Niji No Niwa" build up until a month or so ago. I got up to the point where I purchased a Giesemann Infiniti 2 x 250w , 48" fixture, along with 4 x Giesemann true actinics, and 2 x Ushio 10k bulbs. I was going to supplement with 2 x reefbrite XHOs.

The issue that I'm trying to gain some clarity on, is whether or not halide bulbs and ballasts will be around in a few years.... Bulb and ballast selection has already diminished greatly, and I don't want to die a slow and painful metal halide death, where I find I am settling for bulb combinations I don't like, or piecing together ballasts as this technology fades away.

I want to keep t my fixture, but if halides and t5s are going away in 2020, I'd rather make the switch to LED now. Does anyone have any definitive evidence that metal halide bulbs and ballasts, or t5's aren't going away with the mercury convention, or new lighting efficiency standards?

Below is a pic of my tank, as it currently stands.

Best,

Nathan

Just wanted to say nice set up. Looks new and soooo much potential. Good luck with whatever light works for you.

 

[naterealbig]

Just wanted to say nice set up. Looks new and soooo much potential. Good luck with whatever light works for you.

Thank you!. Its brand new - just added fish from QT today . I was originally planning on using halide and t5 for this build, then decided to go Orphek and sell my fixture.... I couldn't sell it though, and I'm happy I didn't.

I put up the fixture over the tank to last until I bought the LEDs, but after a couple days of looking at it, I'm remembering why I wanted to go with MH+T5 in the first place.....

I think I'll save the $3.5k that I was going to spend on the Orpheks, buy some XHOs and call it a day. I will run these, along with 4 true actinics, and 2 x Ushio 10,000 k. I think I will get some incredible color with this combo!

 

[MtlReef25]

Valid points, but I would say MH users are demanding on results and won't settle for pop alone.
I would disagree people who ran LEDs and run MHs dont have the secret to the led world. I've had lots and lots of time testing different LEDs and have had success, but IMO colors were not the same. Success in this hobby is subjective, some might think their tank looks great while others might disagree. Lots of companies run LEDs successfully such as wwc, the results are out there, proven. The AB templates with some small tunning are proven for anyone not wanting to play with spectrum.
After having so many LEDs, I realized even systems with most advanced LEDs will not change spectrum once things are dialed in. Ramp up and down are to me overrated. Bulb replacements IMO guarantee the fixture is running at its top performance every 10 months or so. LEDs degrade, but that's another discussion. Going back to the thread topic, I notice high demand sps guys still using MHs with blue LEDs for pop.
If I had a much larger tank with heat issues, would give LEDs further evaluation, but for my 150 MH is still king

Absolutely right, people running MH are not idiots about LED... I've tried and suceed with LEDs but still prefer the MH/T5. It gives me what I want as growth and look for my tank point final. I supplement with LED for night view and colours just like I want. I have the chance to live in a cold place, so heat isn't an issue, neither is the hydro bill.

 

[Hot2na]

Hi Everyone,

I have used halide + t5 for a very long time, and had planned on using them for my "Niji No Niwa" build up until a month or so ago. I got up to the point where I purchased a Giesemann Infiniti 2 x 250w , 48" fixture, along with 4 x Giesemann true actinics, and 2 x Ushio 10k bulbs. I was going to supplement with 2 x reefbrite XHOs.

The issue that I'm trying to gain some clarity on, is whether or not halide bulbs and ballasts will be around in a few years.... Bulb and ballast selection has already diminished greatly, and I don't want to die a slow and painful metal halide death, where I find I am settling for bulb combinations I don't like, or piecing together ballasts as this technology fades away.

I want to keep t my fixture, but if halides and t5s are going away in 2020, I'd rather make the switch to LED now. Does anyone have any definitive evidence that metal halide bulbs and ballasts, or t5's aren't going away with the mercury convention, or new lighting efficiency standards?

Below is a pic of my tank, as it currently stands.

Best,

Nathan

I share the exact same concerns -would like to see more people respond to nathan's question .....I just had the opportunity to aquire a 2x250 watt maristar De halide fixture...but couldn't find my favorite bulbs from yrs ago-the IWASAKI 14k...that was the best bulb ever....now it's gone...so unless I see more bulb choices -I'm staying on the sidelines with halides...

 

[Daniel 123]

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this but I do not think you are right here.
1 watt of energy is one watt of heat so 100 watts of energy would create the same amount of heat no matter what the lighting source.
Basically A 100 watt incandescent vs 100 watt fluorescent vs 100 watts of led all produce the same amount of heat.
Basically a halide only feels hotter because the heat is in a smaller spot. Leds disperses the heat through a heat sink it is still the same amount of heat per watt.
The only reason led fixtures produce less heat is because they are usually less wattage and people use less watts to light their whole tank because of efficiency.. A watt of energy is a watt of energy.
I hope I explained and said it right I probably didn't..

"What is efficiency lighting?

The efficiency of any machine or device or process is how much work gets done for each measure of the energy it took to produce that work In lighting, the work is measured in lumens. ... A higher number for lumens per watt means more efficiency: more light produced for less power." The spruce

If your light was 100% efficient lets say for example we call it 100lumens per 1 watt of energy consumed(100% efficient) it would produce no heat. Why...? Bc the energy input produced the maxiumum light output we just stated. But thats a perfect world.

The manufacturer says his incandescent bulb produces 15lumens per watt and his cfl bulb 45 lumens per watt, far from our 100 lumens per watt right. Well there is our efficiency its much less than 100 %, where does the other 85lumens or 55 lumens we were hoping for in our perfect world go? It is transferred to heat.

At 15lumens per watt for incandescent and 45lumens per watt for cfl which would give off more heat?
The one with less efficiency, the incandescent bulb, the one that used a lot of the input energy the 1 watt and produced heat instead of more lumens like we stated we would like in our perfect world 100lumens per 1 watt.
An led is something like 90 lumens per 1 watt, therefore we.... generate more light and less heat per 1 watt.

What else does this tell us... we can use less wattage and produce the same amount of lumens as other lighting sources. All watts are not created equal in lighting.

This is only one side of the story if your growing a plant though, i hope this helped.

 

[Lousybreed]

I have read nothing of a mercury containing bulb ban in 2020. Is there any truth to this?

 

[fredk]

I share the exact same concerns -would like to see more people respond to nathan's question .....I just had the opportunity to aquire a 2x250 watt maristar De halide fixture...but couldn't find my favorite bulbs from yrs ago-the IWASAKI 14k...that was the best bulb ever....now it's gone...so unless I see more bulb choices -I'm staying on the sidelines with halides...

MH is not going away any time soon. I did some digging into industry stats the other day because I was curious as to what the real state of affairs was for MH. Most of the good info is behind paywalls, but what I was able to find is the HID lamps as a category are projected to shrink by 9% over the next 10 years.

To me that means that there will be a market for the existing manufacturers over that time period.

What is interesting is what happens by sector. The greenhouse industry will see HID growth, though LEDs are forecast to grow even more. The outdoor lighting industry will see a fairly steep decline in HID sales.

 

[naterealbig]

I have read nothing of a mercury containing bulb ban in 2020. Is there any truth to this?

While not exactly a Mercury Bulb "ban", it's real, and its name is the Minamata Convention On Mercury. I've peruzed the 72 page official document, and I encourage everyone to read it and provide feedback. It's here:

http://mercuryconvention.org/Portal...sion/Minamata-Convention-booklet-eng-full.pdf

For those that don't have the patience to read the entire text, here are some excerpts of note:

The gist:

Here's how it could potentially effect us:

The good news is, I don't see "HID" (metal halide). lamps specifically on annex A, although we are getting close with specific mention of High Pressure Sodium bulbs. One of my questions is; how much mercury is in a standard t5 lamp?

The bad news is, there will not be any additional mercury mining companies allowed to start after 2020, and the goal is to completely phase out mercury mining within 15 years of this. This is unfortunate for us, although 16 years should be long enough to get LEDs up to "par" [emoji56].

The other bad news is, there will be considerable pressure to reduce dependency on, and minimize mining and processing of mercury - particularly surrounding facility lighting. Unfortunately, the majority of the (few) remaining metal halide bulb manufacturers are centered around facility lighting, while the hobby sector is only a fraction of their output (and will likely be the first to get culled).

My hope is that someone actually in the industry tells me that I've read the paperwork referenced above incorrectly, and that we have nothing to worry about. I'd love to hear your thoughts if you're out there.

 

[andrewkw]

While I'm not really following this I don't believe growing stony corals falls under "general lighting purposes" they are a specialty bulb. So lighting for this kind of application may be exempt.

 

[naterealbig]

While I'm not really following this I don't believe growing stony corals falls under "general lighting purposes" they are a specialty bulb. So lighting for this kind of application may be exempt.

Agreed. I think you will find that as with most specialty lightinghowever , they are small subsections of companies manufacturing for "general" lighting purposes. The question will be, i think, is there enough revenue generated in these sections to keep the technology alive?

 

[oreo54]

While I'm not really following this I don't believe growing stony corals falls under "general lighting purposes" they are a specialty bulb. So lighting for this kind of application may be exempt.

I don't think that means what you think it means...but ??

anyways countries can file for exemptions..

Like Iran..

Explanatory Statement on the Application for the Exemption of the Import of High
pressure mercury vapor lamps (HPMV)
Islanric Republic of Iran supports the phase out of High pressure mercury vapor lamps
(HPMV) , however, inventories have showed that the country produce ,export,imports and
uses these products. Islamic Republic of Iran intend to develop applicable strategies in terrns
of environmental and health consideration as well as socio-economic aspects, to adopt
alternatives and phase them out.
Therefore Islamic Republic of Iran requests exemption from produce,export,imports ofthese
products to2025. This application is made in anticipation of having atimely transition while
developing phase out strategies rvith the ultimate goal of adoptillg mercury free alternatives.
Islamic Republic of Iran will, pursnant to Article 6, paragraphT, withdraw this exenrption if
that becomes possible prior to its expiration date.

http://www.mercuryconvention.org/Po...ran_exemptions_6.pdf#page=3&zoom=auto,-274,79

 

[reefwiser]

I don't have a heat issue with MH as I use the newer electronic ballast design of Reefbrite. I think it is a lot of fear about nothing and if you are struggling with LED and not having success. Then fall back to the tried and true lighting MH and T5's . They work and in most cases are way cheaper to buy an run than many LED's and there are no "settings" just on and off.

 

[shred5]

I don't have a heat issue with MH as I use the newer electronic ballast design of Reefbrite. I think it is a lot of fear about nothing and if you are struggling with LED and not having success. Then fall back to the tried and true lighting MH and T5's . They work and in most cases are way cheaper to buy an run than many LED's and there are no "settings" just on and off.

I do not get the heat issue and think it is overblown. I had (2) 250 over a 40 breeder and just had normal room AC on and lived on the second floor.. I could see if someone had no AC but with normal room ac it should never be a issue. I just do not know many people that do not run AC.
Rod of Rods food used to have a 400 watt metal halide over what looked to be a little biocube.
A properly vented halide should not have a issue
I think allot of people that talk about heat issues never had halides and are just parroting what they heard. If you properly vent them they should be fine for most people. Halides should not be used in a enclosed canopy.

While not exactly a Mercury Bulb "ban", it's real, and its name is the Minamata Convention On Mercury. I've peruzed the 72 page official document, and I encourage everyone to read it and provide feedback. It's here:

http://mercuryconvention.org/Portals/11/documents/Booklets/COP1 version/Minamata-Convention-booklet-eng-full.pdf

For those that don't have the patience to read the entire text, here are some excerpts of note:

The gist:

Here's how it could potentially effect us:

The good news is, I don't see "HID" (metal halide). lamps specifically on annex A, although we are getting close with specific mention of High Pressure Sodium bulbs. One of my questions is; how much mercury is in a standard t5 lamp?

The bad news is, there will not be any additional mercury mining companies allowed to start after 2020, and the goal is to completely phase out mercury mining within 15 years of this. This is unfortunate for us, although 16 years should be long enough to get LEDs up to "par" [emoji56].

The other bad news is, there will be considerable pressure to reduce dependency on, and minimize mining and processing of mercury - particularly surrounding facility lighting. Unfortunately, the majority of the (few) remaining metal halide bulb manufacturers are centered around facility lighting, while the hobby sector is only a fraction of their output (and will likely be the first to get culled).

My hope is that someone actually in the industry tells me that I've read the paperwork referenced above incorrectly, and that we have nothing to worry about. I'd love to hear your thoughts if you're out there.

That is not even for the United States or any country really.
Any country could chose to ignore or comply.

MH is not going away any time soon. I did some digging into industry stats the other day because I was curious as to what the real state of affairs was for MH. Most of the good info is behind paywalls, but what I was able to find is the HID lamps as a category are projected to shrink by 9% over the next 10 years.

To me that means that there will be a market for the existing manufacturers over that time period.

What is interesting is what happens by sector. The greenhouse industry will see HID growth, though LEDs are forecast to grow even more. The outdoor lighting industry will see a fairly steep decline in HID sales.

Agreed they are not going anywhere soon..
Again I work in the lighting industry.
There are way to many existing installations. When I was at Light Fair this year even though the booths mere mostly showing led when you looked up the convention center probably had over a thousand halide fixtures.
Owners of building are not just going to spend that kind of money to upgrade all their existing lighting to save a few dollars on electrical. Leds Fixtures are still more expensive than halides even though the gap is closing fast.
This is a guess and it may be higher but probably over 80 percent of new installations are led. I would guess still around 80 percent of existing installations are still halide.

 

[jda]

People get mad when I post this, but heat is a solvable issue for people who want to solve it and a non-starter for those who don't. The truth is more along the lines that outside of a few really tough climates, like South Florida and the Mojave, heat is not hard to mitigate if you want to... most of the time with just fans and some smarts. If you don't want to, then it is the impossible, systemic barrier that is similar to solving a quadratic differential equation.

 

[Jeremy Luke]

Agree with the above. I shove 600w of MH and 220w of T5 into water that is less than 18" deep. I don't use anything to mitigate heat. My tank stays between 78 and 79 year round. I suppose if I let the room the tank sits in get super hot (to me this means like 78 F +), I'd probably need to use some fans over my sump.

 

[Steven Garland]

I love halides,and wish they never stopped making 70w.. I used it on my old nano and had some of the best colors I have ever had.

 

[Madmanmadrid]

I found this post just at the right time. I bought out a buddy who wanted out of the hobby. Out of all the stuff I found 2 sets of MH. One is used the other is new in box. Thinking of selling them but after this post I'm on the fence.
They are Hamilton tech Cayman sun 250w.
Paired with lumatek 250w electric ballest
Bulbs no clue

 

[lancesmith1]

YEP . I loved my Chinook Boat fan sitting on the edge of my tank blowing hot air and humidiity into my office. SWEET! I ran the old 10K Iwasaki's back in the 80"s. I have tried every light source in my 30 plus years and while QUALITY LEDs take some adjustment to dial in they produce a lot less heat and can be just/almost as productive. Roast away my fellow reefers!

 

[naterealbig]

I do not get the heat issue and think it is overblown. I had (2) 250 over a 40 breeder and just had normal room AC on and lived on the second floor.. I could see if someone had no AC but with normal room ac it should never be a issue. I just do not know many people that do not run AC.
Rod of Rods food used to have a 400 watt metal halide over what looked to be a little biocube.
A properly vented halide should not have a issue
I think allot of people that talk about heat issues never had halides and are just parroting what they heard. If you properly vent them they should be fine for most people. Halides should not be used in a enclosed canopy.





That is not even for the United States or any country really.
Any country could chose to ignore or comply.






Agreed they are not going anywhere soon..
Again I work in the lighting industry.
There are way to many existing installations. When I was at Light Fair this year even though the booths mere mostly showing led when you looked up the convention center probably had over a thousand halide fixtures.
Owners of building are not just going to spend that kind of money to upgrade all their existing lighting to save a few dollars on electrical. Leds Fixtures are still more expensive than halides even though the gap is closing fast.
This is a guess and it may be higher but probably over 80 percent of new installations are led. I would guess still around 80 percent of existing installations are still halide.

Thank you! This is great insight.

Nathan

 

[naterealbig]

People get mad when I post this, but heat is a solvable issue for people who want to solve it and a non-starter for those who don't. The truth is more along the lines that outside of a few really tough climates, like South Florida and the Mojave, heat is not hard to mitigate if you want to... most of the time with just fans and some smarts. If you don't want to, then it is the impossible, systemic barrier that is similar to solving a quadratic differential equation.

Agreed, I have lived in central or south Florida most of my life. Several systems - all but one run off halides. Never, ever, used a chiller. I have used a small Honeywell fan run from my apex on the sumps, and it has always worked great.