No love for MH?

[ca1ore]

I've no idea whether LED is cheaper or not …. trying to calculate all the direct and indirect costs and savings just gave me a headache. I decided it wasn't worth the effort. They use less energy, require less effort from my chiller in the Summer …. but more effort from my heaters in the winter. I've spent over $5K in LED fixtures for my current 450. Were I to swap it all out, I'd probably spend half that for comparable quality MH. $2.5K covers a lot of replacement bulbs and electricity usage. SO, I do think the whole cost saving thing is a non-starter. If I knew then what I know now, would I have made the switch. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[CC13]

I've no idea whether LED is cheaper or not …. trying to calculate all the direct and indirect costs and savings just gave me a headache. I decided it wasn't worth the effort. They use less energy, require less effort from my chiller in the Summer …. but more effort from my heaters in the winter. I've spent over $5K in LED fixtures for my current 450. Were I to swap it all out, I'd probably spend half that for comparable quality MH. $2.5K covers a lot of replacement bulbs and electricity usage. SO, I do think the whole cost saving thing is a non-starter. If I knew then what I know now, would I have made the switch. Maybe, maybe not.

Just curious what size tank? I'm assuming its on the larger scale.

 

[RCS82]

I've no idea whether LED is cheaper or not …. trying to calculate all the direct and indirect costs and savings just gave me a headache. I decided it wasn't worth the effort. They use less energy, require less effort from my chiller in the Summer …. but more effort from my heaters in the winter. I've spent over $5K in LED fixtures for my current 450. Were I to swap it all out, I'd probably spend half that for comparable quality MH. $2.5K covers a lot of replacement bulbs and electricity usage. SO, I do think the whole cost saving thing is a non-starter. If I knew then what I know now, would I have made the switch. Maybe, maybe not.

I can't recall correctly if you run T5s with your LEDs as well?

 

[CC13]

I can't recall correctly if you run T5s with your LEDs as well?

Side note.... great Avatar you have there.

 

[Jay Norris]

Firstly, you need to compare apples to apples in order to get a true comparison across all variables if your going to offer a broad statement. You also need to compared LED's as a single average and then MH as a single average. You need to calculate on average what both give you, what both cost and what money your really saving. I can tell you 100% off the bat your not saving any money overall in the first 4-5 years of owning 'high' end LED units unless maybe you have a nano and one LED unit will suffice; that's not my opinion, that's a fact.

Secondly, high end LED's cannot grow any type of coral just as good as any halide/T5 in every type of tank. I have a 36" high tank and LED's don't give me the PAR required on my lower parts of my tank to keep clams or SPS. I need halides to punch down that deep.

The LED vs. Halide/T5 arguments are so old at this point. If you honestly have convinced yourself that they are cheaper, by all means, you should buy them. If you actually run the cost to buy and replace vs. the cost of electricity savings you would see, you actually haven't saved a thing.

Hi, it all depends on the quality of the LED lights you use. The Mitra’s I purchased will easily be enough light for a clam in 36”s of water, and where I live, the electrical savings will pay for the lights in 3 years. I have a big chiller and a separate A/C unit for my fish room, now if I lived in a cold climate, the savings in electricity would not be worth it.

 

[ca1ore]

If it truly did grow SPS better, then you wouldn't have people switching from LED back to halides/T5.

Is anybody saying LED grows corals better? My view would be that they are now close enough to make LED a viable choice. As to why folks switch back, I couldn't attribute too much coherence to it - people do lots of things because they 'think' it may help LOL (so more 'random' switching than 'informed' switching). All I can say is that I have grown THIS under LED exclusively. Nary a photon from MH or T5 in four years LOL. So I guess I'd be the 1 out of 100 long-term SPS keepers that picks LED.

 

[ca1ore]

I can't recall correctly if you run T5s with your LEDs as well?

No, was never a T5 guy. Ran older VHO technology with my MH for years, but when I switched to LED about 6 years ago I still ran some MH …. then went cold turkey LED in 2015.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Debate (read controversy) is certainly healthy for the hobby, and there's plenty here. These discussions are prompting me to get going on a project I've had in the works for a while. Hypothesis - The narrow bandwidth of LEDs - particularly violet and shortwave blue - are particularly efficient. Could be wrong, Tests will confirm.

 

[CC13]

Just curious what size tank? I'm assuming its on the larger scale.

Is anybody saying LED grows corals better? My view would be that they are now close enough to make LED a viable choice. As to why folks switch back, I couldn't attribute too much coherence to it - people do lots of things because they 'think' it may help LOL (so more 'random' switching than 'informed' switching). All I can say is that I have grown THIS under LED exclusively. Nary a photon from MH or T5 in four years LOL. So I guess I'd be the 1 out of 100 long-term SPS keepers that picks LED.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic when I asked how large your system was, I was actually interested in the tank size of your display since I also have halides and LED. You mentioned 2.5k in halide equipment so I was genuinely curious how large your system was LOL.

 

[shred5]

Debate (read controversy) is certainly healthy for the hobby, and there's plenty here. These discussions are prompting me to get going on a project I've had in the works for a while. Hypothesis - The narrow bandwidth of LEDs - particularly violet and shortwave blue - are particularly efficient. Could be wrong, Tests will confirm.

That would be interesting especially since we see some light starting to target these areas.

 

[CC13]

Debate (read controversy) is certainly healthy for the hobby, and there's plenty here. These discussions are prompting me to get going on a project I've had in the works for a while. Hypothesis - The narrow bandwidth of LEDs - particularly violet and shortwave blue - are particularly efficient. Could be wrong, Tests will confirm.

There was a thread a while back that talked about UV bulbs on reef tanks.... it was interesting I remember that.

 

[jda]

I wonder if that's really true? I imagine sales data now versus 5 years ago and then 10 years ago is unobtanium; but it would be interesting to see what they actually are …. and were. The comments of a single retailer may be representative, or they may not be. Metal halide across all industries IS disappearing in favor of more efficient forms. For example, most of my manufacturing clients have replaced all their factory MH lights with LED. I have little doubt that this is true for things like public lighting as well. Whether it is true in the reef hobby is less clear. There are far more people keeping tanks now, so it is entirely possible that there are more total MH users now versus 10 years ago even if it represents a declining and minority percentage. there seem far less choices available now than in the past - that runs counter to the argument that MH is thriving. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. We each use what works best for us in our particular application. In my case that's now LED, and I have no issues growing corals to my satisfaction.

I did make the point earlier that I'd suspect most folks relatively new to the hobby use LED. I don't know this for sure, of course, but it seems intuitively likely to me. Those folks I know that have been in the hobby for a while seem more likely to use MH - because it has worked for them.

Hi Simon. I have seen enough for me to safely say that usage is up without it being hyperbole or speculation. First, retail outlets saying so. Second, Hamilton not able to keep up with demand. Third, just what I have seen with my own eyes in our town and on our local forum. Any one of these on their own could leave room for debate and wonder, but with all three, this is enough for me.

I really think that we need to separate applications where cut-spectrum can work from applications where it cannot. In a factory, warehouse on on the street, a very narrow spectrum will do just fine and you can save some watts. In a full-spectrum application, there is no savings if you supply all of the spectrum (and still none if you have excess in some areas) - you have to make cuts to save energy. Dell Aquila did a really good job of explaining this in his video, but many of us noticed it already.

Selfishly, I wish that there was still a max MH and T5 exodus where I could go to the local forum or CraigsList and pick up m80 ballasts and Giesemann or Sfilogi fixtures for less than $100. Those days are long gone and demand is up. I guess that this could be a fourth indicator to consider.

I have said this before a million times, so my apologies, but good growth is not enough for me... I want absolute best color too. I would not be happy watching a PearlBerry look better under MH than it did under the Kessil(?)... but I totally get that people do not care.

 

[ca1ore]

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic when I asked how large your system was, I was actually interested in the tank size of your display since I also have halides and LED. You mentioned 2,5k in halide equipment so I was genuinely curious how large your system was LOL.

No worries - it's big …..

 

[ca1ore]

I really think that we need to separate applications where cut-spectrum can work from applications where it cannot. In a factory, warehouse on on the street, a very narrow spectrum will do just fine and you can save some watts. In a full-spectrum application, there is no savings if you supply all of the spectrum (and still none if you have excess in some areas) - you have to make cuts to save energy. Dell Aquila did a really good job of explaining this in his video, but many of us noticed it already.

I completely agree. My point, perhaps incompletely made, was whether the disappearance of MH in many industrial capacities is a problem for the reef hobby. Does a company like Hamilton, for example, rely on equipment that is not reef specific; and thus the loss of those markets means that equipment sources will dry up. I fully admit to knowing almost nothing about their business, so perhaps not a concern.

 

[Jay Norris]

Hi Simon. I have seen enough for me to safely say that usage is up without it being hyperbole or speculation. First, retail outlets saying so. Second, Hamilton not able to keep up with demand. Third, just what I have seen with my own eyes in our town and on our local forum. Any one of these on their own could leave room for debate and wonder, but with all three, this is enough for me.

I really think that we need to separate applications where cut-spectrum can work from applications where it cannot. In a factory, warehouse on on the street, a very narrow spectrum will do just fine and you can save some watts. In a full-spectrum application, there is no savings if you supply all of the spectrum (and still none if you have excess in some areas) - you have to make cuts to save energy. Dell Aquila did a really good job of explaining this in his video, but many of us noticed it already.

Selfishly, I wish that there was still a max MH and T5 exodus where I could go to the local forum or CraigsList and pick up m80 ballasts and Giesemann or Sfilogi fixtures for less than $100. Those days are long gone and demand is up. I guess that this could be a fourth indicator to consider.

I have said this before a million times, so my apologies, but good growth is not enough for me... I want absolute best color too. I would not be happy watching a PearlBerry look better under MH than it did under the Kessil(?)... but I totally get that people do not care.

I totally agree with you, that the savings in electricity between the 2 type of lights is minimal if you are using the same wattage lights, but if you live in a warmer climate you also need to take into account, the cost of running a chiller, and in my case the extra cost of air conditioning my fish room, because of the heat generated by my M/H - VHO fixtures. You want to see a PearlBerry look good, put it under a Mitra LX7206 light.

 

[Jay Norris]

I completely agree. My point, perhaps incompletely made, was whether the disappearance of MH in many industrial capacities is a problem for the reef hobby. Does a company like Hamilton, for example, rely on equipment that is not reef specific; and thus the loss of those markets means that equipment sources will dry up. I fully admit to knowing almost nothing about their business, so perhaps not a concern.

I am pretty sure the commercial market plays a role in their ability to sell M/H lights to aquarist.

 

[ca1ore]

good growth is not enough for me... I want absolute best color too. I would not be happy watching a PearlBerry look better under MH than it did under the Kessil(?)... but I totally get that people do not care.

The issue I have is that there is literally nobody near me that runs what I'd consider to be a top tank lit by MH and photographs simply don't cut it - I need to see tanks with my own eyes to really judge. Visual memory fades, so it is hard for me to make a useful judgement of, for example, my tank against somebody else's. It is, I supposes, why this particular debate both interests and frustrates me …. and these threads ultimately move the needle not at all.

 

[ca1ore]

I am pretty sure the commercial market plays a role in their ability to sell M/H lights to aquarist.

I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine the ballast components, for example, are common across multiple industry applications. Would be interesting to ask them.

 

[ca1ore]

I went diving on the Florida Keys last Summer and was left, as I usually am after that kind of experience, dissatisfied with ALL of the reef aquarium lighting choices …..

 

[oreo54]

LOL LED's are a far more advanced technology (in both the bells and whistles that it provides and its efficiency). If it truly did grow SPS better, then you wouldn't have people switching from LED back to halides/T5.

The debate on LED's being cheaper overall is also so largely overplayed and its also just not true for the most part.

Yea they buy 90W of LED's and wonder why things don't grow as well as under 250W of MH's Gee go figure..

note .bb's are nowhere near rated output in REAL output...