No love for MH?

[Jeremy Luke]

Same here. I've had everything lighting my tanks over the years and my Spectra combo is the best. I'm also running a Reefbrite XHO for some extra zing.

I'm adding Orphek UV LED bars this weekend. My previous tank was all LED. The pop that LED adds does make a nice visual.

 

[Rcpilot]

I'm adding Orphek UV LED bars this weekend. My previous tank was all LED. The pop that LED adds does make a nice visual.

I'd be interested in seeing how those perform. I've given serious thought ot adding them as supplemental.

Which size or model # did you purchase?
Pics?
Tank thread?

 

[jwshiver]

I ditched the Radions for Giesemann Spectra with 250w Radium, 2 ATI Coral Plus, 2 ATI Blue Plus and 2 Reef Brite Actinic Blue XHO. My coral color and growth have never been better.

 

[Jeremy Luke]

I'd be interested in seeing how those perform. I've given serious thought ot adding them as supplemental.

Which size or model # did you purchase?
Pics?
Tank thread?

I purchased the 120cm UV ones. I purchased them because they can be mounted directly to end plate screws on the Giesemann Spectra without having to alter the fixture. I got the idea from @Reefcowboy who mounted the sky blue version to his. You have to cut the mounts that come with the bars in half to attach them. I'll snap some pics once I've mounted them. Hope to do the work on Sunday.

 

[Dana Riddle]

The MH v. LED debate reminds me of my high school days - Ford v. Chevy. Both will work and what is best depends upon your particular situation. I won't say that I'd never use MH again, in fact, I've built an aluminum jig to hold MH lamps in order to look at PAR and PUR. If the results look promising I would consider use of the 'best' MH lamp. Cost of electricity in Georgia is a mere fraction of what it was in Hawaii, so that isn't much of an issue now.

 

[shred5]

It is not a dying breed. Numbers are going up (along with T5s)... Hamilton is constantly sold out of stuff since demand over the last few years has been more than they have expected. A big retailer said at MACNA that AquaticLife Hybrid units are outselling all of the big-three LEDs combined - he did not say what those are, but Kessil, AI and EcoTech are probably them.

Of the 20 folks that are the best reefers around me in Colorado, 16 or 17 of them use MH in some capacity and none of the rest of them use LED alone and really only for supplement - 20 out of 20 relying on MH or T5 for the heavy lifting. About half of them went all-LED in the boom and are now back. We do live in Colorado and any heat is a blessing - not that heat is hard to solve if you want to, but it can be more of a problem in some climates.

Most of the MH people are sick of fighting with the front runners and noobies and just do not post too much... the fight is just not worth it to most. I do not mind fighting, but I do get sick of the people who have no idea what they are talking about telling me that I am stupid... only for them to not be in the hobby a year or two later. I think that their posts are just lower since the leading edge drive the forums.

You can tell that MH usage is on the upswing since I cannot get m80 ballasts for $20 anymore nor good reflectors and fixtures for pennies on the dollar... you have to pay a reasonable price for used MH gear now. It has been like this for a few years.

I agree 100 percent.

A couple of years ago A major retailer sent me a message that halide and t-5 sales were picking up. They also said leds sales were still increasing but at a smaller pace.
Last year my local fish store said leds sales had dropped and halides and t-5 had picked up significantly.


Allot of halide people are the seasoned reefers or more experienced hobbyists and get frustrated with some of the larger forums. They either stay way all together or hang out on smaller or private forums.

So many are looking for a excuse to do something wrong on the forums. 10 people say no do not do it and you get someone that has been in the hobby a year saying I was able to do it but that person giving bad advice is gone a year later. They will take that person advice so why give any.

Allot of Halide users are also not into the trendy corals and shy away from major forums.

I do not think it is only halide user it is allot of the veterans of the hobby in general stay away now. It is obviously not all though do because there are some very knowledgeable people here but it is the reason so many give me when I ask why they are not on some of the forums.

I think another reason is what you keep.. Sps keeprs tend to like halides more than someone with a softies or mix tank. Sps are what seem to benifit the most with halides more or it requires allot more leds fixtures to help with shading and the cost get really high.

All lighting technology has it upside and down side.

 

[shred5]

Fun fact that I learned the hard way... I put a LED light bulb in my garage door opener. It would open, but never shut while the light was on. Went to Google and there is something in LED bulbs that messes with signal reception with rolling-code garage door openers unless you are SUPER close. If anybody has this problem, put a CFL or normal bulb back in there. This drove us crazy for a few months until I figured it out. Of course, this has nothing to do with LEDs, just a wierd cooincidence of tech messing with each other.

I have this problem... I have not been able to figure it out.
It always open but most of the time I have to run out side to close it or hit the switch on the wall.

 

[Jay Norris]

Also like others say, you are not saving money using LEDs if you are upgrading every few years. LED fixtures are really pricey for the small area they cover. In a few years I may try them again once the price starts to get reasonable.

Hi, small area,

I agree 100 percent.

A couple of years ago A major retailer sent me a message that halide and t-5 sales were picking up. They also said leds sales were still increasing but at a smaller pace.
Last year my local fish store said leds sales had dropped and halides and t-5 had picked up significantly.


Allot of halide people are the seasoned reefers or more experienced hobbyists and get frustrated with some of the larger forums. They either stay way all together or hang out on smaller or private forums.

So many are looking for a excuse to do something wrong on the forums. 10 people say no do not do it and you get someone that has been in the hobby a year saying I was able to do it but that person giving bad advice is gone a year later. They will take that person advice so why give any.

Allot of Halide users are also not into the trendy corals and shy away from major forums.

I do not think it is only halide user it is allot of the veterans of the hobby in general stay away now. It is obviously not all though do because there are some very knowledgeable people here but it is the reason so many give me when I ask why they are not on some of the forums.

I think another reason is what you keep.. Sps keeprs tend to like halides more than someone with a softies or mix tank. Sps are what seem to benifit the most with halides more or it requires allot more leds fixtures to help with shading and the cost get really high.

All lighting technology has it upside and down side.

Hi, I was one of those so called seasoned veterans using M/H, VHO combos on my SPS dominated tanks, and I had great success using them, but I also live in South Florida, and using that fixture over my system produced an uncreditable amount of heat in my fish room and display tank, thus I needed to run a big chiller and add a separate central A/C unit to my fish room. Now with the fact that LED technology has caught up to using M/H's and T5's I switched over to the Mitra LX 7206 lights, and it made an immediate impact to the temperature in the fish room and tank, and from what I have been told by veteran LED users their will be no drop of in the way my corals will grow, and the color of some of the corals will actually be better. I will let everyone know my results in six months or so, and so far everything seems to be doing just fine, just like before. If the LED's work for me it will be a win, win situation for me.

 

[oreo54]

I am inclined to agree in applications where the cut-down spectrum is of no consequence - like your plant or in my kitchen. However, the reinvestment in Mercury where full-spectrum is needed is also widespread. Just in Colorado where I appraise, there is not a single grow facility that is using LED anymore and all are back to HPS/MH - one of the facilities had stacks and stacks of grow LEDs in the corner and the guy said that I could have as many as I wanted. Around here, commercial growing is mostly Hippie Lettuce, but there is also basil, thyme, oregano, tomatoes, etc.

the thermal heat is an advantage in that area..

 

[Rcpilot]

Cost of electricity in Georgia is a mere fraction of what it was in Hawaii, so that isn't much of an issue now.

Funny how energy prices differ so much across the country. We recently moved from Colorado to Florida. Our electric bill is double what it was in Colorado. That cost of energy was the primary catalyst that pushed me towards the LED lights and DC pumps with my new build.

 

[oreo54]

Hamilton is constantly sold out of stuff since demand over the last few years has been more than they have expected.

Better question.. how many quality MH vendors left??
Seems to be a concentrating market of a few players..
boom bust cycle..

 

[shred5]

Better question.. how many quality MH vendors left??
Seems to be a concentrating market of a few players..
boom bust cycle..

Never was allot...
The hobby was smaller.
Most of those halide lighting manufactures that do not make them anymore like PFO are out of business or not making any fixtures anymore.

I would bet leds fixture manufacturers will consolidate over time. The hobby is not big enough to support so many.

If you are talking commercial. It is hard to say I work in the lighting industry and Light fair this year was loaded with led but it is for new lighting. Most still make a halide fixture that did. Leds is actually finally catching on in commercial in a big way. Initial cost of fixtures for led has been so much higher and when you have 10,000 lights on a job the initial cost can be hard to swallow even with energy savings. The cost price is narrowing per fixture now.

That said a big chunk of the lighting at Light Fair was Chinese leds and their booth were dead. We cant spec them because we can not afford problems and only spec those light manufactures we trust to take care of a issue. Most of those leds manufactures wont be around in a few years.

What is really is pushing led is energy/lighting codes and lighting system were they are now networked together for control.

 

[ca1ore]

It is not a dying breed. Numbers are going up (along with T5s)... Hamilton is constantly sold out of stuff since demand over the last few years has been more than they have expected. A big retailer said at MACNA that AquaticLife Hybrid units are outselling all of the big-three LEDs combined - he did not say what those are, but Kessil, AI and EcoTech are probably them.

I wonder if that's really true? I imagine sales data now versus 5 years ago and then 10 years ago is unobtanium; but it would be interesting to see what they actually are …. and were. The comments of a single retailer may be representative, or they may not be. Metal halide across all industries IS disappearing in favor of more efficient forms. For example, most of my manufacturing clients have replaced all their factory MH lights with LED. I have little doubt that this is true for things like public lighting as well. Whether it is true in the reef hobby is less clear. There are far more people keeping tanks now, so it is entirely possible that there are more total MH users now versus 10 years ago even if it represents a declining and minority percentage. there seem far less choices available now than in the past - that runs counter to the argument that MH is thriving. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. We each use what works best for us in our particular application. In my case that's now LED, and I have no issues growing corals to my satisfaction.

I did make the point earlier that I'd suspect most folks relatively new to the hobby use LED. I don't know this for sure, of course, but it seems intuitively likely to me. Those folks I know that have been in the hobby for a while seem more likely to use MH - because it has worked for them.

 

[CC13]

High end LED's can grow any type of coral just as good as any M/H or T5 light, the only trouble with LED's is, you have to learn how to program them for the correct color spectrum and PAR. With M/H's or T5's you just need to pick the bulbs you want and plug them in, which is a whole lot easier then trying to program your lights to the correct color spectrum, and PAR. Their are a few programs that people are starting to use, that grow corals just as well as M/H's and T5's, plus you get all the extra benefits that LED's offer, especially if you live in the Southern States. I was a M/H, VHO user for 30 yrs. or so and grew all sorts of SPS Corals and it was very easy with these tried and true lights, but since I live in South Florida, and having an average monthly $700 electric bill, I decided to try LED's, so far so good, my chiller runs a lot less, my fish room is cooler , thus the A/C does not need to run as much, so if I can save a hundred dollars or more a month, it will be a win, win for me. Believe me I would not spend a few thousand dollars on new Mitra LED lighting unless the technology was there to grow my corals the way they grew with my M/H, VHO combo. Plus these LED's have a fantastic ramp up, and down cycle that really makes it nice when the lights are first coming on, and going off. I am not trying to persuade you to change over to LED's, but your statement LED's cannot grow corals as good as M/H's or T5's is totally wrong. Lets give it 6 months or so, and I will show you the difference in growth and color, from day one. And savings on my electric bill will be another bonus.

Firstly, you need to compare apples to apples in order to get a true comparison across all variables if your going to offer a broad statement. You also need to compared LED's as a single average and then MH as a single average. You need to calculate on average what both give you, what both cost and what money your really saving. I can tell you 100% off the bat your not saving any money overall in the first 4-5 years of owning 'high' end LED units unless maybe you have a nano and one LED unit will suffice; that's not my opinion, that's a fact.

Secondly, high end LED's cannot grow any type of coral just as good as any halide/T5 in every type of tank. I have a 36" high tank and LED's don't give me the PAR required on my lower parts of my tank to keep clams or SPS. I need halides to punch down that deep.

The LED vs. Halide/T5 arguments are so old at this point. If you honestly have convinced yourself that they are cheaper, by all means, you should buy them. If you actually run the cost to buy and replace vs. the cost of electricity savings you would see, you actually haven't saved a thing.

 

[oreo54]

Firstly, you need to compare apples to apples in order to get a true comparison across all variables if your going to offer a broad statement.

you mean like this one?.. Sorry coudn't resist.. Irony is my weakness..

If you asked 100 SPS reefers that have kept SPS long term and used both halide/T5 and then LED's; 99 of those people would hands down agree that for pure growth halide/T5 work far better period.

 

[CC13]

you mean like this one?.. Sorry coudn't resist.. Irony is my weakness..

LOL LED's are a far more advanced technology (in both the bells and whistles that it provides and its efficiency). If it truly did grow SPS better, then you wouldn't have people switching from LED back to halides/T5.

The debate on LED's being cheaper overall is also so largely overplayed and its also just not true for the most part.

 

[shred5]

Firstly, you need to compare apples to apples in order to get a true comparison across all variables if your going to offer a broad statement. You also need to compared LED's as a single average and then MH as a single average. You need to calculate on average what both give you, what both cost and what money your really saving. I can tell you 100% off the bat your not saving any money overall in the first 4-5 years of owning 'high' end LED units unless maybe you have a nano and one LED unit will suffice; that's not my opinion, that's a fact.

Secondly, high end LED's cannot grow any type of coral just as good as any halide/T5 in every type of tank. I have a 36" high tank and LED's don't give me the PAR required on my lower parts of my tank to keep clams or SPS. I need halides to punch down that deep.

The LED vs. Halide/T5 arguments are so old at this point. If you honestly have convinced yourself that they are cheaper, by all means, you should buy them. If you actually run the cost to buy and replace vs. the cost of electricity savings you would see, you actually haven't saved a thing.

Yea we had issues in warehouses with highbay led fixtures where we were told that leds could replace halides 1 for 1 and they could not. Average foot candles were the same but because they are so directional they put out a ton of light under the light but not much light in between and the owner of the building was not happy.Well we needed more fixtures than with halides.

We have had leds manufacturers manipulate files we used in our lighting analysis programs to make them look like they could replace halides 1 for 1.

Now they have more unique ways of spreading out the light with reflectors or what ever. But leds start to loose their advantage when they start to spread the light out.
Leds efficiency comes from not wasting light and putting the light where it needs to be. It is that characteristic that causes the self shading in a reef tank. The more they try to spread the light out to help with self shading the less par will be under the fixture.

 

[CC13]

Yea we had issues in warehouses with highbay led fixtures where we were told that leds could replace halides 1 for 1 and they could not. Average foot candles were the same but because they are so directional they put out a ton of light under the light but not much light in between and the owner of the building was not happy.Well we needed more fixtures than with halides.

We have had leds manufacturers manipulate files we used in our lighting analysis programs to make them look like they could replace halides 1 for 1.

Now they have more unique ways of spreading out the light with reflectors or what ever. But leds start to loose their advantage when they start to spread the light out.
Leds efficiency comes from not wasting light and putting the light where it needs to be. It is that characteristic that causes the self shading in a reef tank. the more they try to spread the light out the less par will be under the fixture.

I know this first hand also. I have a family member that was 'recommended' by their lighting supply contractor to change out their halide high-bay lighting fixtures with LED units - they have a 20,000 square foot warehouse and office building. They needed two LED units for each one halide pendant they were currently running.

When you factor in all the costs of the new LED units, installation and other costs, the cost savings for the first 4-5 years was non-existent when comparing on an overall basis. Each LED unit was $350 + $50 for the cage protector and hanging kit for a total of approx $400 + 13% tax. This excludes any installation and removal costs of the existing units. Like I stated earlier, your not seeing cost savings into the very distant future and at that point whats to say there isn't a new technology you will be looking into buying before you are even able to see the benefit of the lower electricity LED fixtures.

The argument of LED's being cheaper is so far gone at this point. If anyone actually ran the numbers, they would very easily see they are in no way cheaper on an overall cost vs. benefit basis until a very far distant future of them being owned.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Funny how energy prices differ so much across the country. We recently moved from Colorado to Florida. Our electric bill is double what it was in Colorado. That cost of energy was the primary catalyst that pushed me towards the LED lights and DC pumps with my new build.

The Big Island's primary source of power were oil-fired generators. A KwH went for about 50 cents per. I was so happy when PFO sent me a couple of Solaris LED arrays to test - my power bill went from $400 to %150.

 

[tnyr5]

I voted "other" because all the well-made lights grow coral just fine and it doesn't matter which you use.