No love for MH?

[APC]

I don't think anyone wants to turn this into a M/H vs LED debate but I feel like chiming in. First your #1 and 2 issues, have you seen the new reefbrite M/H units? I haven't experienced them in person but from the posts about them I've come to think they give off barely any heat and run very very efficiently. Issue 3 about changing bulbs, I see no downside to plugging a new bulb in and having basically a brand new light again. Sure beats buying thousands worth of Radion gen 1 or 2s maybe 5 or 6 years ago and already replacing them with gen 4s let's say. And set it and forget it I would not use to describe LEDs, M/H is the most plain and simple set and forget system. I see thread after thread regarding what channels to run at what intensity or how much reds or greens should we run.
Sorry just my 2 cents, nothing more.

All reasonable and fair points. When I bought my LED's reefbrite was not even an option and I was coming off MH and T5. Heat was definitely an issue for me. The LED's solved that immediately. I would also clarify that to me "set and forget" does not equal "plug and play". It took me some time to get my LED's set up the way that I want them (like it took me a while to find the right mix of T5 bulbs back in the day), but once I got my LED's dialed in - I basically do nothing with them (no bulb changes, etc.). Also, knowing that they throw off much less heat than my old MH/T5 set up means I am less worried about cooling (I live in the Deep South - heat is an issue for me more than anything else) while I am gone for work. All that being said, I do love the look of an MH light - the shimmer effect you get is amazing and is something I will always fondly remember about my original set up. LED just works better for me.

 

[Slicktop]

MH and t-5's here. I use a small fan on timer year round to displace heat and keep my house cool in the summer. I don't have a chiller and have no issues with tank temp. I have a single 250 w 20k radium with electronic ballast, and 6 T-5"s on a Cube . I only run the MH @ 4 hours a day.

 

[Captain Quint]

20+ years of successful tanks, 18 with halides. Nothing was better than the look of 10k with VHO actinics, have to settle for T-5 supplement now. Tried Radions but didn’t like the look and the fiddling.

LED’s can produce some crazy colors lighting up those flourescent proteins, something I think you would have a hard time finding in the wild under the good ol sun. I personally want my reef to look like a reef

John

One of my favorite fixtures was a Hamilton 250w Mogul with VHO's and I certainly do not disagree at all.

I had to force myself to play with the settings for quite sometime before I was satisfied with Radions.

 

[Rcpilot]

I don't have any experience with LED's over a fish tank yet. In the past I always used T5 and MH. I did recently purchase an LED fixture, but have not had a chance to finish the tank build, so can't comment on how they look or perform over water.

I can tell you that I've used both HID and LED's over an indoor fruit & vegetable garden. The HID's (MH) ALWAYS produce more, better tasting, and bigger fruits and vegetables. PERIOD. All other factors being equal, the MH wins for quantity of fruit and overall quality of taste. In a basement in Colorado (coooold) a MH light is a welcome source of heat during the day. Small space heaters must be activated at night to keep temp swings manageble.

I have a hunch that the LED's will work fine for my coral reef, but I have no illusions of fast growing corals. They will grow, but it will be slower vs MH. I don't care though, as I'm not eating the corals or selling them to supplement income. The lower electric bill is more important to me when it comes to a fish tank.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'll probably never go back to MH. The heat & bulb replacement requirements made me change to T5. I really liked the look I got from T5 and the even light spread across the tank, but I didn't like the cost of bulb replacement and heat was still a problem in the Kansas summer. I've settled on LED although will probably add a couple of T5's to help with a shadowing issue I've noticed.

 

[Jay Norris]

I agree with the above post. mH’s are for those that are more experienced with the hobby, and have been in it for longer, in most cases. Newer hobbyists would not have been as exposed to MH’s as they arent really available at stores anymore. Not by any means saying newer hobbyists or led users cant be as successful, but many users of the old technology know what to expect and dial that type of light to success.

I think you have that backwards, M/H's are for people who don't want to waste their time, or don't have the knowledge to program their LED's correctly, as M/H and T5 bulbs are all plug and play. I use to run M/H, VHO fixtures for over 30 years and I loved how easy they were to use and all the coral growth you would get with them, but I got tired of replacing the bulbs every 9 to 12 months, even using the newest and greatest ballast in the industry, then there was the heat, and the need for a large chiller, and putting A/C vents in my fish room. The end of last year I decided to try LED's on my Tank, Fuge and Sump, I went with the Reef Breeders Photon V2+ for my Fuge and Sump, and the Mitra LX 7206 lights over my Display Tank, and I will never go back to M/H's, T5's or VHO,s over my system. The Mitra's are the best LED's on the market, they use parabolic reflectors like my old Lumen Brite reflectors, and the programming is so easy, compared to a lot of other LED's on the market. Yes, the better LED's cost a lot of money, but for me they are so worth it, as I love the ramp up, ramp down cycles the LED's offer, and all the different color spectrums you can program thru out the day, but you need to know how to program these different spectrums or you can do damage to your corals. So for me, I voted I will never go back.

 

[Jay Norris]

I don't have any experience with LED's over a fish tank yet. In the past I always used T5 and MH. I did recently purchase an LED fixture, but have not had a chance to finish the tank build, so can't comment on how they look or perform over water.

I can tell you that I've used both HID and LED's over an indoor fruit & vegetable garden. The HID's (MH) ALWAYS produce more, better tasting, and bigger fruits and vegetables. PERIOD. All other factors being equal, the MH wins for quantity of fruit and overall quality of taste. In a basement in Colorado (coooold) a MH light is a welcome source of heat during the day. Small space heaters must be activated at night to keep temp swings manageble.

I have a hunch that the LED's will work fine for my coral reef, but I have no illusions of fast growing corals. They will grow, but it will be slower vs MH. I don't care though, as I'm not eating the corals or selling them to supplement income. The lower electric bill is more important to me when it comes to a fish tank.

I have been told, just the opposite, and in a year or so I will let this forum know if you are right or not, but good luck with your system with what ever lighting system you prefer.

 

[peder]

Love my Mh+t5, live in Scandinavia so the heat is a win win here!

 

[Reefcowboy]

I think you have that backwards, M/H's are for people who don't want to waste their time, or don't have the knowledge to program their LED's correctly, as M/H and T5 bulbs are all plug and play. I use to run M/H, VHO fixtures for over 30 years and I loved how easy they were to use and all the coral growth you would get with them, but I got tired of replacing the bulbs every 9 to 12 months, even using the newest and greatest ballast in the industry, then there was the heat, and the need for a large chiller, and putting A/C vents in my fish room. The end of last year I decided to try LED's on my Tank, Fuge and Sump, I went with the Reef Breeders Photon V2+ for my Fuge and Sump, and the Mitra LX 7206 lights over my Display Tank, and I will never go back to M/H's, T5's or VHO,s over my system. The Mitra's are the best LED's on the market, they use parabolic reflectors like my old Lumen Brite reflectors, and the programming is so easy, compared to a lot of other LED's on the market. Yes, the better LED's cost a lot of money, but for me they are so worth it, as I love the ramp up, ramp down cycles the LED's offer, and all the different color spectrums you can program thru out the day, but you need to know how to program these different spectrums or you can do damage to your corals. So for me, I voted I will never go back.

Valid points, but I would say MH users are demanding on results and won't settle for pop alone.
I would disagree people who ran LEDs and run MHs dont have the secret to the led world. I've had lots and lots of time testing different LEDs and have had success, but IMO colors were not the same. Success in this hobby is subjective, some might think their tank looks great while others might disagree. Lots of companies run LEDs successfully such as wwc, the results are out there, proven. The AB templates with some small tunning are proven for anyone not wanting to play with spectrum.
After having so many LEDs, I realized even systems with most advanced LEDs will not change spectrum once things are dialed in. Ramp up and down are to me overrated. Bulb replacements IMO guarantee the fixture is running at its top performance every 10 months or so. LEDs degrade, but that's another discussion. Going back to the thread topic, I notice high demand sps guys still using MHs with blue LEDs for pop.
If I had a much larger tank with heat issues, would give LEDs further evaluation, but for my 150 MH is still king

 

[jda]

Great watch on lighting. No one kind is really more efficient than another once you factor in everything:

 

[ReefEngr]

I really liked the MH and T5 combo. The heat from the MH is great during the winter months, as the heater doesn't have to come on as often when the lights are on. However, the tank gets way too hot in the summer without a chiller.

 

[Rcpilot]

I have been told, just the opposite, and in a year or so I will let this forum know if you are right or not, but good luck with your system with what ever lighting system you prefer.

You can let the community know your findings in a year. You won't be telling them whether or not I'm "right" because you're not growing a garden in your basement, as I have.

You can certainly tell the community YOUR findings though. Looking forward to the report.

 

[CC13]

I have been told, just the opposite, and in a year or so I will let this forum know if you are right or not, but good luck with your system with what ever lighting system you prefer.

Hands down halides and T5 grow SPS better. There is no comparison.

You can make the argument perhaps that LED's also can grow SPS - sure and nobody is saying LED's can't also keep SPS.
You can possibly make the argument that LED's cost less - I disagree when looking at all variables but sure maybe you could argue this point also.

But when you look at pure growth. Halides and T5 win hands down. If you asked 100 SPS reefers that have kept SPS long term and used both halide/T5 and then LED's; 99 of those people would hands down agree that for pure growth halide/T5 work far better period.

 

[Sea&summit]

Had Hamilton T5/halide. Noisy, hot and kind of ugly. Switched to Orphek v4's and solved all those issues without noticing any real difference in growth. Up in my garage near Seattle if anyone wants it. 60 inch version.

I'd be interested in getting that mh fixture out of your way

 

[maroun.c]

I’ve ran halides on my tanks since 1998. Currently I run 6 tanks and the big DT has a combination of halides and radions ( radions are there for color supplementation and for the actinic dawn and dusk mostly.
I have good results with most of the tanks even ones running older leds but the growth and colors I get on my DT with halides is way better. I don’t really care about the het produced as I struggle more to heat the tanks than to chill them.
Bulbs have been difficult to find for a small period but I stocked up for 2-3 years to come. All reefers who visit are shocked by how “lit” the tank is and I assume this is due to the lack of shadows from halides VS LEDs.
LEDs might give more color pop and more control and a much more enjoyable or a fancier overall eperience, they do work for sure but I don’t see why I’d think they’re better from Halides if I only think lighting and results. Halides have the upper edge in better and more realistic color rendition and coverage with less shadows. I can look at pictures taken under my 14 k Phoenix or ushios unedited where I nearly always have to correct the WB on Pics taken with LEDs

 

[Oldreefer44]

I'd be interested in getting that mh fixture out of your way

I'll fish it out and make sure it still works and let you know.

 

[oreo54]

More for fun than anything else..

Dr. Beatriz Estela Casareto, Professor at Research Institute of Green Science and Technology, Shizuoka University

“Whether corals can normally grow strongly depends on the health status of their symbiotic algae named zooxanthellae. As a result of their photosynthesis, zooxanthellae provide corals with essential organic matter that corals utilize for their growth. Light is a very important environmental factor that determines the photosynthetic performance of zooxanthellae and, therefore, the coral health status. At Shizuoka University, we had developed an experiment to test the abundance of zooxanthellae and their photosynthetic pigments (chlorophyll a and peridinin) in aquariums at 24℃, to test the effect of light on coral growth using Kyocera's Natural White's LEDs (KNW) and a conventional LED (CLED) at 400 µm cm-2 sec-1. The experiment was conducted for 2 months using two coral species, Montipora digitata and Acropora spp. from Okinawa. Results showed that corals incubated under KNW kept their original color intact against corals under CLED that appeared pale after 2 months. Zooxanthellae density increased 32 to 47%, Chl-a 17 to 44 % and peridinin 26 to 125% in KNW treatments when compared to CLED treatments. Results clearly showed that, due to its similarity to the natural sunlight, the KNW lamp is highly suitable for growing corals during a long period of time. It is also expected that, using KNW, new results in the study of coral physiological responses and coral bleaching will be obtained.”

https://global.kyocera.com/news/2018/0702_leda.html

Mr. Tetsuo Takeshima, Director of Enoshima Aquarium

“We had been looking for a high-quality light source alternative to metal-halide lamps since manufacturing and importing mercury products will be restricted from 2020 based on the Minamata Mercury Convention signed in 2013. It had been a big challenge for us because many sea water creatures cannot grow well with conventional LED lighting. We found Kyocera's LED lighting and tried using it for an experiment to raise eelgrass, which is difficult to grow with conventional LED, and this experiment showed positive results. We expect Kyocera's LED to drastically reduce power costs while creating a good environment for raising marine life.”

 

[Jay Norris]

Hands down halides and T5 grow SPS better. There is no comparison.

You can make the argument perhaps that LED's also can grow SPS - sure and nobody is saying LED's can't also keep SPS.
You can possibly make the argument that LED's cost less - I disagree when looking at all variables but sure maybe you could argue this point also.

But when you look at pure growth. Halides and T5 win hands down. If you asked 100 SPS reefers that have kept SPS long term and used both halide/T5 and then LED's; 99 of those people would hands down agree that for pure growth halide/T5 work far better period.

High end LED's can grow any type of coral just as good as any M/H or T5 light, the only trouble with LED's is, you have to learn how to program them for the correct color spectrum and PAR. With M/H's or T5's you just need to pick the bulbs you want and plug them in, which is a whole lot easier then trying to program your lights to the correct color spectrum, and PAR. Their are a few programs that people are starting to use, that grow corals just as well as M/H's and T5's, plus you get all the extra benefits that LED's offer, especially if you live in the Southern States. I was a M/H, VHO user for 30 yrs. or so and grew all sorts of SPS Corals and it was very easy with these tried and true lights, but since I live in South Florida, and having an average monthly $700 electric bill, I decided to try LED's, so far so good, my chiller runs a lot less, my fish room is cooler , thus the A/C does not need to run as much, so if I can save a hundred dollars or more a month, it will be a win, win for me. Believe me I would not spend a few thousand dollars on new Mitra LED lighting unless the technology was there to grow my corals the way they grew with my M/H, VHO combo. Plus these LED's have a fantastic ramp up, and down cycle that really makes it nice when the lights are first coming on, and going off. I am not trying to persuade you to change over to LED's, but your statement LED's cannot grow corals as good as M/H's or T5's is totally wrong. Lets give it 6 months or so, and I will show you the difference in growth and color, from day one. And savings on my electric bill will be another bonus.

 

[Lousybreed]

When comparing lumens per watt, T5's are close to LEDs. No idea about MH's, but one difference between the 3 as far as the tank is concerned is where the energy is lost and radiated. With T5s and MH's, there's a fair amount of infrared radiation directed towards the tank. With LEDs, the energy loss is typically with the LED driver that's on the back side of the fixture meaning much less direct heating of the water. Whether that is significant for you or not depends on your situation.

You are dead on. I think that most metal halides are around 80 lumen/watt.....the best LED's might approach 100-110 lumens/watt.

 

[oreo54]

You are dead on. I think that most metal halides are around 80 lumen/watt.....the best LED's might approach 100-110 lumens/watt.

"Best" (best as in power sometimes not in spectrum) LED's are doing over 130L/watt...
"Little" LED's are like 100L/W just like t5's MH's..
Another factor to consider is that no matter the quality of the reflector you lose efficiency w/ 360 degree light sources.. always....

Looking forward... (actually the below was 6 years ago, 2013 )

Breaking the barrier
“The new prototype lamp marks the first time that lighting engineers have been able to reach 200 lm/W efficiency in a real-life lamp without compromising on
light quality,” says Rifat Hikmet, the Principal Scientist at Philips Research who made the breakthrough. Reaching even higher numbers in the past was possible, but such high values were reached at a cost of light quality (it was too green, for example), which was unacceptable for general lighting purposes in every day settings.

More to the point, cheap LEd's are pushing 100L/w..