No love for MH?

[MnFish1]

I kind of feel like that’s been common knowledge for a while now. Kelvin rating has become entirely subjective. Most led users think of solid royal blue as 20k. I’ve read enough accounts of people switching from LEDs to trying out metal halides and calling the 20k radium bulb too yellow. In the planted tank world the 6500k bulb is considered on the blue end. In the early days of reefing 10k was blue. Opinions change and there’s no real reference standard beyond the Incandescent bulb as 3000k if I’m not mistaken. The radium 20k looks nearly identical to the Phoenix 14k, which is about as blue as the reeflux 12k was. The ushio 14k looked about as yellow as my old xm10k’s. Every manufacturers kelvin rating is different. You just kind of learn what to expect from various options

This is interesting - thanks. That said - how many people are as expert as you and @jda - whose encyclopedic knowledge of bulbs, etc is extremely impressive - who can go out and check 8 bulb types to decide which to order if its going to be based on 'subjective' appearance - as compared so actual spectrum. (I mean I keep seeing spectra posted from different halides as compared to LED's). Just asking

 

[oreo54]

err Kelvin can be correct BUT since it's correctly CCT (correlated color temp)
NOT black body lighting it's variable as to look at the same color temp.
Different ratios of various wavelengths can still "average" to say 10000K but look completely different.
This isn't just specific to high k lighting but any based on light tech w/ punctated spectrums.
i.e LED, flourecent or MH's..
This doesn't mean quality control on cheap bulbs isn't also part of the equation but it's
not the whole story.

Note that CCT does not tell you anything about the color rendering ability of the LED.

Same w/ MH's..
http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/support/support/faqs/white-light-and-colour/what-does-cct-mean

https://eyelighting.com/lighting-te...-lighting-basics/correlated-color-temperature
Any point along the solid black line is at the same correlated temp.
Consider the back dashed line as the "standard" for given temp. I.e a continuous spectrum source.

 

[MnFish1]

err Kelvin can be correct BUT since it's correctly CCT (correlated color temp)
NOT black body lighting it's variable as to look at the same color temp.
Different ratios of various wavelengths can still "average" to say 10000K but look completely different.
This isn't just specific to high k lighting but any based on light tech w/ punctated spectrums.
i.e LED, flourecent or MH's..
This doesn't mean quality control on cheap bulbs isn't also part of the equation but it's
not the whole story.

If I - as a MH moron (admittedly) buy a bulb from a reputable company as compared to one of the 'cheap' Ebay alternatives - or a fixture from same who is to blame if there is a problem. I was only alluding to the fact that people keep saying - buy a cheap EBAY fixture - or bulbs - my comment you get what you pay for. And you're correct it happens with LED, T5, knockoffs etc. I hope I responded to what you were referring to - you didnt quote the post you were referring to so - apologize if this doesn't relate.

 

[oreo54]

If I - as a MH moron (admittedly) buy a bulb from a reputable company as compared to one of the 'cheap' Ebay alternatives - or a fixture from same who is to blame if there is a problem. I was only alluding to the fact that people keep saying - buy a cheap EBAY fixture - or bulbs - my comment you get what you pay for. And you're correct it happens with LED, T5, knockoffs etc. I hope I responded to what you were referring to - you didnt quote the post you were referring to so - apologize if this doesn't relate.

It was a general comment..
Point was even "10000K" from one brand/manuf to another can look different. Thats not a matter of quality but of construction.

As to eek bay and the like.. MH fixures are what.. socket, ballast, reflector and some incidentals.
Even buying a name brand wouldn't mean someone hasn't replaced a ballast or 2.

Being cheap and a bit suspicious of electronics.. Pay for a fixture only.. i.e assume ballasts will die and bulbs will be cr@p unless you have reasonable proof otherwise..

Buying from a manuf is like buying insurance.. POMind...but not really worth anything more..

If you consider the fact that there probably are only a few Chinese factories that account for a LOT of the bulbs out there, like any industry, the quality ones are cherry picked due to getting a much higher markup
on sales..


Restaurants get the best meats because suppliers can charge more...and those are just selected off the line. Generally not like the cow cost more..but they can profit more..

Who knows. Bulbs on the bay could be anything from factory rejects to slightly out of spec to pure overstock (or just another market stream)..
"Quality" would scale accordingly..

Also sometimes you pay for "consistency" more than quality.
and why one could find out of spec bulbs..
Problem nowadays it's getting like CRT tubes .. Towards the end there were only 2 or 3 factories in the world that built them...........

https://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Metal_Halide_Lamp.html

 

[A. grandis]

This is interesting - thanks. That said - how many people are as expert as you and @jda - whose encyclopedic knowledge of bulbs, etc is extremely impressive - who can go out and check 8 bulb types to decide which to order if its going to be based on 'subjective' appearance - as compared so actual spectrum. (I mean I keep seeing spectra posted from different halides as compared to LED's). Just asking

Spectrum, related to the aquarium bulbs in general, isn't a precise guide for comparison of spectrum per say, but more like a "branded name" Kelvin number to each bulb, with the subjective appearance of their colors.
The brightness and color of a metal halide bulb will also vary according to each different ballast used with that very same bulb.
To get the recommended ballast to the metal halide bulb you choose is important so that particular bulb could give you the right results and efficiency it was designed for in the long run. It will therefore technically last longer when driven by the right ballast. It is also safer to use the right ballast it was designed for, and it will show the "true color" the manufacturer intended for that bulb.
The colors of the bulbs are just a reference and more like a general idea that each particular brand uses.
Keep in mind that supplemental lights could totally change the color (so called spectrum) of your system too.
Different color bulbs (comparing their spectrum charts) will give you different results in color and growth of the organisms you keep.
Light alone isn't what define those results though, as we all know.
Light reflection is different than true pigmentation.

 

[Bpb]

This is interesting - thanks. That said - how many people are as expert as you and @jda - whose encyclopedic knowledge of bulbs, etc is extremely impressive - who can go out and check 8 bulb types to decide which to order if its going to be based on 'subjective' appearance - as compared so actual spectrum. (I mean I keep seeing spectra posted from different halides as compared to LED's). Just asking

There’s not really an easy way to address that. Even taking Oreos objective data presented, that doesn’t help the halide-inexperienced hobbyist make an informed decision if they felt so inclined to use this technology. Honestly, when I ran metal halide, I just researched heavily and chose my bulbs based on overwhelming user opinions. That, and finding people with used bulbs who are kind enough to let me try out to get an idea. Pictures have largely been inaccurate on most kinds of lighting. I can definitively say that the overall look of a radium bulb in an m80 ballast doesn’t look much like 99% of pictures out there. It is truly a beautiful look that I’ve yet to see anything quite match.

 

[oreo54]

Funny how little things can be perceived so different:
Ham vs Rad w/ electronic ballast
m60's run higher wattage and shift the Radion to more "white".
No idea regarding the ham on m80..

I bet if you used an m80 magnetic ballast on the radium you'd like the color just as much as the hamilton 20k. The hamilton bulb is spec'd to run at 250 watts I think. The radium is supposed to run with a magnetic m80 ballast which I think is around 330 watts. Running it at 330 will make it more white.

 

[RCS82]

I switched to metal halides without a lot of M/H experience and for me it wasn't too complicated picking a bulb out. Had to decide on either single end or double ended and who is currently making bulbs. Hamilton and Giesemann have bulbs for both in the 14k to 20k range, where most people are choosing. So that left me choosing between single ended radiums or double ended 14k Phoenix. I went 14k Phoenix cause of the reputation and I figured if I wanted something bluer I could go Hamilton or giesseman. And I'm loving it.

 

[jda]

This is why there is no substitute for experience. Having used hundreds of bulbs over the years, it is not hard to know the difference in them when you look at them for a year and have time see how the tank reacts and to make your conclusions.

I hate false equivalencies, but it is similar to anything else... my 520 cubic inch olds motor ran terribly on AC Delco plugs, but did great with Denso with the EXACT SAME materials and specs. Some people think that Coke and Pepsi taste the same and others will argue to the death about the differences. There are some things that you just cannot learn until you use stuff, and use stuff for a longer period of time. It is not hard for people with experience to know that 14k Phoenix and 20k Radium look VERY similar and neither is really a 20k like other 20k bulbs are.

BTW - the new 20k Hamilton was made to look like the 20k Radium, but be able to be operated on a regular 250w ballast. They look similar because they were engineered that way. The older 20k Hamilton was much bluer to my eyes.

Lastly, I would caution anybody not to draw too many conclusions about a bulb in a new tank... the white sand, rock, etc. looks different than once the tank has some color in it (purple, brown, etc.).

 

[Bpb]

This thread makes me miss MH

 

[Brian1f1]

Hey Brian, my Giesemann Spectra in its current configuration is running at 716 watts. This is about 100 more watts than the 6 x XR-15s, or the 3 x Orphek Atlantik that I considered running. In Florida we are talking literally a few extra pennies a day. I have never, ever run a chiller on my halide lit tanks, and I have been using halides since 2002. A nice fan costs me about $9 bucks at target, and is easier for me to install than a phosban reactor..... While the idea certainly sounds nice, I didn't see any noticeable difference in my electricity bill when running G3s (i loved them), and the whole energy savings argument for LEDs is tough for me to swallow.

That’s interesting. On my reefer 525 I went from drawing almost 900 watts for two 400 watt MH to drawing 155 watts for 3 Hydra 26 HD’s.

 

[RCS82]

JDA, I've read that the new Hamilton line up is pretty nice. If anyone is running their HQI bulbs, feel free to comment. Would be great to try them out in the future, well that and the Giesemann bulbs.

 

[Jay Norris]

This thread makes me miss MH

Yes I really liked my M/H lights and the VHO lamps that went along with them. But as far as missing them, I miss them a little bit less everyday since acquiring my Mitra LX7206 lights.

 

[Bpb]

Yes I really liked my M/H lights and the VHO lamps that went along with them. But as far as missing them, I miss them a little bit less everyday since acquiring my Mitra LX7206 lights.

I can respect that. I’m a rational adult and can recognize people can and do grow colorful acropora with LEDs. My one attempt with them was a miserable crash and burn so I still have a bad taste in my mouth. I run all T5 now with no supplements. I would have gone back to halides but I got such a good deal on this sunpower and I’m on a pretty tight budget. The cost involved for comparable par and coverage on top shelf LEDs is patently absurd for what I’m able to afford

 

[naterealbig]

Funny how little things can be perceived so differ.....

Hey Oreo,

Where did you come across that spectral plot?. I have looked at hundreds of bulb/ ballast combos on Sanjay's lighting site, but this looks different from them. Is there another site that you can pull graphs from?. I'm curious, as Manhattan Reefs is missing some bulb plots I'd like to see... And the last few times I've been on, I can't see the link for pulling the data....

Thank you!

 

[naterealbig]

JDA, I've read that the new Hamilton line up is pretty nice. If anyone is running their HQI bulbs, feel free to comment. Would be great to try them out in the future, well that and the Giesemann bulbs.

I've seen some chat about this as well on the boards. I'm fond of the high peaks in the 420 nm range, and I see it looks like the Hammy has got the edge here... And, might be slightly more blue....

May be buying these next..... I've been looking for an excuse to support Hamilton. Great company.

 

[biecacka]

I was following a thread on another forum and it was others who used the cheap eBay bulbs that recommended to me, “buy the 20k for a more 14k bulb.”
No I didn’t have a par meter on my hand at the time but I used it based on the numbers in the thread I was following. I was also informed that some had replaced bulbs sooner than others.
I didn’t have a point per say to my original post and was on a quick break from a meeting. I guess one could take from it that you can definitely find bulbs much cheaper than $70-100 as many suggest. Without using my clubs par meter I am unable to say if there was much drop off or even equal par to begin with. Many ppl in the thread I followed said they got 12 months from them. So for $10 a bulb for a year, that is even more cost effective than most accuse halides of being. Again, I didn’t test mine but can gladly link the link from the thread in here if that’s allowed and anyone is interested.
@MnFish1, I guess I was just making a statement based on nothing in general, bringing to light there are other places to get bulbs and ppl have had good success with them. I didn’t mean to blanket accuse eBay sellers or anyone for that matter. In fact I think the bulbs are working out pretty good for me thus far. Everything is growing nicely in my tank, I’m just not sure I like the color personally. I think I prefer the radium a bit more, but as JDA stated the new Hamilton 20k is designed to be closer to the radium and ran on regular ballast so I might try them out next.

Corey

 

[oreo54]

Hey Oreo,

Where did you come across that spectral plot?. I have looked at hundreds of bulb/ ballast combos on Sanjay's lighting site, but this looks different from them. Is there another site that you can pull graphs from?. I'm curious, as Manhattan Reefs is missing some bulb plots I'd like to see... And the last few times I've been on, I can't see the link for pulling the data....

Thank you!

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radium-vs-hamilton-20k-spectrum.336497/

 

[Jay Norris]

I can respect that. I’m a rational adult and can recognize people can and do grow colorful acropora with LEDs. My one attempt with them was a miserable crash and burn so I still have a bad taste in my mouth. I run all T5 now with no supplements. I would have gone back to halides but I got such a good deal on this sunpower and I’m on a pretty tight budget. The cost involved for comparable par and coverage on top shelf LEDs is patently absurd for what I’m able to afford

Yes, I totally agree with you on the cost of the high end LED's, and that is the main problem with LED's. The good news is, there are more and more, cheaper, and very good LED's that can grow corals really well, coming on the market everyday.

 

[jda]

In that chart, the 20k Radium is run on an electronic ballast, not HQI... at least 50w less than spec and probably more like 70 or 80w. Visually, the bulbs look REALLY similar to me, but the Radium on m80 still has more PAR (tested with Apogee 510), but you would expect this with more power. The 20k Hammy is a great bulb to run on 250w ballasts where you do not need the extra power of HQI. The 20k Radium on m80 (HQI) has almost as much PAR as a 400w Radium.

The only real issue with cheap Chinese bulbs is the consistency from batch to batch. If you get your whole set from the same batch, then you are cool. If you get one from here and one from there, then they can be different colors. CoralVue used to be like this too where I really loved their 12k bulbs which were nice and white with a lot of pop, but every single batch looked different and they looked like different bulbs each time.

I hope that nobody thinks that I have formulated all of my opinions about MH from lack of use from other lights. I won't argue that LED "grow coral" or are "just fine," but there is a definite and pronounced ceiling with them that you need other lights to get past. Again, some of this just comes down to being able to see the level where you are at and the level at where you want to be.