No love for MH?

[maroun.c]

I know cameras are irrelevant but it's just an important aspect of reading as people also want to share their tanks on social media and it's weird that it works flawless with Mh and T5 but fails with LED.
I only shoot when halides are on with mixed lighting tanks and for Led only tanks I noost all the colors and take down the blues before a shoot which makes PP easier a bit. I've taken thousands of pics and worked the best I could to figure out the way that works for me in correcting those.
As it's now a fact that all lighting, Led included can grow and color up coral I believe it's those small details.that make all the difference.
The shadowing u still get even when u overnight ur tank in units and intensity with LEDs is a major aspect to look at. What to what comparison leds dont really win compared to halides unless u key in ur chiller working more in summer ( which isnt a killer in mild weather countries or in colder ones )
Halides do for sure have their drawbacks like size or looks.
As u say it's not about what my eyes see or what the camera sees for sure but were now beyond that as all forms of lighting are guaranteed to.make ur tank thrive it's time.to go back and look at coverage, shadowing , color rendition and total cost of ownership.
So far LEds haven't lived to the 5 years or more guaranty simply as theres still major updates happening even on good units every 2_3 years or so ( maybe a bit slower In last major versions from the big players ) so with the cost of replacement I dint see the real saving when u compare to the running cost of halides.
Many factors to look at and we each have a different rating for the importance of those and I'm.sire none of us will convince the others as theres simply no right or wrong choice.
I do own a nikon and will check the link, thanks .

 

[naterealbig]

The rise of rimless aquariums and the aesthetics have a Part play besides just the LED marketing.

If someone made a MH that looks something like a Hydra 52, I bet you would see a lot more being hung up.

Posts about metal halide aesthetics always crack me up. If metal halide were not an option, I'd pay an extra grand to have my Orpheks in a fixture that came anywhere close to as good looking as a Giesemann, Sfiligoi, Elos.....

 

[Wrangy]

The thing that always blows me away with lighting discussions is how hostile everyone is to each other, why is that?? We're all in the same hobby, we all want the same things and this constant squabbling is mind blowing. I get it, we all like to be right but there are so many ways to skin the proverbial cat in this hobby it's not funny, why do we need to trod on those who have a differing opinion?

The MH folk that are flat out refusing to acknowledge that LED's can't achieve the same results are incredibly closed minded. Maybe you don't like new tech or enjoy a whiter looking tank but it's just a ridiculous statement to be making and holding your ground on it is high illogical. However, the LED folks that are trying to claim that LED's are far superior to MH are also just as bad. The other thing that blows my mind is it's only these two groups, I see all the T5 supporters giggling in the background at this school yard immaturity.

MH is an incredible light source. LED's are an incredible light source. They both grow and colour corals wonderfully! Many stores, hobbyists and wholesalers use such a difference of light sources in such wide variety you can't use them against each other. And on the same hand, claiming that because a store got discounted or a selection of lights for free it negates any relevance they have is utterly ridiculous and something that you also have no proof of. Do we think WWC got some sort of special treatment? Of course they did, look at how many bloody lights they have!! You wouldn't expect a landscaper to pay retail prices on material or a plumber to pay full price for plumbing. They would have gotten amazing deals on the tanks they have as well but no one is using that as an excuse against them.

MH's are ****** hot. LED's are not nearly as hot, there are positives and negatives for this that can be very very location specific. LED's are very efficient in their power usage but does that mean power consumption is less? No because you need more to cover an area. Are they more expensive to setup? Well duh, do you see how simple it is to run MH compared to LED? There's so much more involved in LED's, a venturi skimmer with a DC pump is more expensive that a wooden airstone skimmer... it's economics and the costing of manufacturing. The excuse of people upgrading their LED every few years as a counter to bulb or T5 replacement is hilarious too, that has nothing to do with the technology but people's individual feelings. How many times did MH change over the years in their reflectors? What about the bulb colour temperature? Y'all can be just a wishy-washy as those regularly changing LED's. It's a personal thing and nobody is forcing anyone to buy a new fixture, however you do have to change your bulbs and tubes.

Basically my rant boils down to everyone needs to put their phallic objects back in their pants and stop swinging it about. It's a hobby we all love and want people to do well in. That can be achieved with LED's, T5's, MH's, or any combination of those lighting sources. Just because LED's haven't been around as long as MH, it doesn't mean anything. People said the same thing about cars over horse and carriages back in the day but look at it now...

Everyone needs to just chill out, take a breath and try to be helpful, not confrontational. Am I asking too much?? To those that reply to this post telling me I'm anything I'm saying you're literally missing the point of it. And before the question is asked, I've run LED's only, LED's + T5's, MH + T5's and MH + T5's + LED Strips over my tanks and they've all been sps dominated too, so yes, I do think I am able to talk about the various sources and what they all do.

 

[A. grandis]

Ok boys, here are more important subjects for us to understand.
Many people, including Dr. Sanjay, also noticed that Halides and T5s will build stronger and more compact skeletons than their tested LEDs. Please don't forget that Dr. Sanjay has all those Radions at 100% and uses lots of water flow!!
Not to say that most corals under LEDs will have protuberant dead spots under their colonies. Dr. Sanjay also told me that!
UV from LEDs can't even tickle comparing to halides, and T5s are also superior to LEDs in that regard. Not to mention IR. Both important to the corals' metabolism, as found in nature. LED companies are trying to implement some of that in their toys to sell their "new technology". So funny to see that!
All those are health factors when keeping corals in captivity. It's not only about aesthetics!

 

[honkit]

Ok boys, here are more important subjects for us to understand.
Many people, including Dr. Sanjay, also noticed that Halides and T5s will build stronger and more compact skeletons than their tested LEDs. Please don't forget that Dr. Sanjay has all those Radions at 100% and uses lots of water flow!!
Not to say that most corals under LEDs will have protuberant dead spots under their colonies. Dr. Sanjay also told me that!
UV from LEDs can't even tickle comparing to halides, and T5s are also superior to LEDs in that regard. Not to mention IR. Both important to the corals' metabolism, as found in nature. LED companies are trying to implement some of that in their toys to sell their "new technology". So funny to see that!
All those are health factors when keeping corals in captivity. It's not only about aesthetics!

Show a link to a study that states halides build stronger SPS skeletons. I have never heard of such a study least of all from Sanjay Joshi.

 

[Braves Fan]

The thing that always blows me away with lighting discussions is how hostile everyone is to each other, why is that?? We're all in the same hobby, we all want the same things and this constant squabbling is mind blowing. I get it, we all like to be right but there are so many ways to skin the proverbial cat in this hobby it's not funny, why do we need to trod on those who have a differing opinion?

The MH folk that are flat out refusing to acknowledge that LED's can't achieve the same results are incredibly closed minded. Maybe you don't like new tech or enjoy a whiter looking tank but it's just a ridiculous statement to be making and holding your ground on it is high illogical. However, the LED folks that are trying to claim that LED's are far superior to MH are also just as bad. The other thing that blows my mind is it's only these two groups, I see all the T5 supporters giggling in the background at this school yard immaturity.

MH is an incredible light source. LED's are an incredible light source. They both grow and colour corals wonderfully! Many stores, hobbyists and wholesalers use such a difference of light sources in such wide variety you can't use them against each other. And on the same hand, claiming that because a store got discounted or a selection of lights for free it negates any relevance they have is utterly ridiculous and something that you also have no proof of. Do we think WWC got some sort of special treatment? Of course they did, look at how many bloody lights they have!! You wouldn't expect a landscaper to pay retail prices on material or a plumber to pay full price for plumbing. They would have gotten amazing deals on the tanks they have as well but no one is using that as an excuse against them.

MH's are ****** hot. LED's are not nearly as hot, there are positives and negatives for this that can be very very location specific. LED's are very efficient in their power usage but does that mean power consumption is less? No because you need more to cover an area. Are they more expensive to setup? Well duh, do you see how simple it is to run MH compared to LED? There's so much more involved in LED's, a venturi skimmer with a DC pump is more expensive that a wooden airstone skimmer... it's economics and the costing of manufacturing. The excuse of people upgrading their LED every few years as a counter to bulb or T5 replacement is hilarious too, that has nothing to do with the technology but people's individual feelings. How many times did MH change over the years in their reflectors? What about the bulb colour temperature? Y'all can be just a wishy-washy as those regularly changing LED's. It's a personal thing and nobody is forcing anyone to buy a new fixture, however you do have to change your bulbs and tubes.

Basically my rant boils down to everyone needs to put their phallic objects back in their pants and stop swinging it about. It's a hobby we all love and want people to do well in. That can be achieved with LED's, T5's, MH's, or any combination of those lighting sources. Just because LED's haven't been around as long as MH, it doesn't mean anything. People said the same thing about cars over horse and carriages back in the day but look at it now...

Everyone needs to just chill out, take a breath and try to be helpful, not confrontational. Am I asking too much?? To those that reply to this post telling me I'm anything I'm saying you're literally missing the point of it. And before the question is asked, I've run LED's only, LED's + T5's, MH + T5's and MH + T5's + LED Strips over my tanks and they've all been sps dominated too, so yes, I do think I am able to talk about the various sources and what they all do.

What he said Very well written ,,,

 

[oreo54]

Ok boys, here are more important subjects for us to understand.
Many people, including Dr. Sanjay, also noticed that Halides and T5s will build stronger and more compact skeletons than their tested LEDs. Please don't forget that Dr. Sanjay has all those Radions at 100% and uses lots of water flow!!
Not to say that most corals under LEDs will have protuberant dead spots under their colonies. Dr. Sanjay also told me that!
UV from LEDs can't even tickle comparing to halides, and T5s are also superior to LEDs in that regard. Not to mention IR. Both important to the corals' metabolism, as found in nature. LED companies are trying to implement some of that in their toys to sell their "new technology". So funny to see that!
All those are health factors when keeping corals in captivity. It's not only about aesthetics!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4149485/

The mean distance among corallites (± SD, for all results presented) in A. formosa was significantly different in all light treatments (DF = 2, F = 35.03, p<0.05), with higher values registered in the LED treatment (1236±184 µm) followed by values obtained in the T5 treatment (1167±180 µm) and in the LEP treatment (1009±101 µm). The corallite diameter (DF = 2, F = 450.90, p<0.001) and length of septa (DF = 2, F = 352.31, p<0.001) were also significantly different in all light treatments, for all comparisons. A. formosa fragments stocked under LED lighting presented the highest mean value of corallite diameter (1115±118 µm), followed by fragments from LEP (762±67 µm) and T5 (702±90 µm). As for corallite diameter, the highest septal length mean value was registered for corals from LED treatment (355±37 µm), followed by fragments from LEP (286±.25 µm) and T5 (224±29 µm). The theca thickness mean value was significantly higher (DF = 2, F = 71.25, p<0.01) for corals from LED treatment (264±44 µm), when compared with those from T5 (210±23 µm) and LEP (210±24 µm) treatments.

A study published by Rocha et al. [30] showed that blue light spectra from LED promoted higher specific growth rates (mean ± SD) in A. formosa (0.0031±0.0005% day−1) when compared with coral fragments grown under T5 (0.0019±0.0004% day−1) and LEP (0.0011±0.0004% day−1) lights. Blue light spectra also positively affected the specific growth rates registered for S. pistillata, since the coral fragments grown under the full light spectra of LEP presented significantly lower values of specific growth rate (0.0014±0.0003% day−1) when compared with coral fragments grown under T5 (0.0022±0.0006% day−1) and LED (0.0023±0.0003% day−1). While these differences may somehow help to explain the differences in microstructure, we cannot claim that they are indeed correlated. Moreover, as no significant differences in porosity were detected, any further discussion on this topic would be too speculative.

I remember a quote by someone you respect that said they started w/ 4000k MH's because that was all there was..

Evolution is a funny thing..

Lighting technologies for reef aquarium have come a long way since I first started in the hobby about 20 years ago. Back then there were very few choices and 4300K to 5500K metal halide lamps and normal 40W fluorescent lamps were the standard choices.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature2

 

[alton]

They are lying..or it was a long time ago..or it was cost prohibitive.
Having to sell $1000 one trick pony LED light is not really good capitalism
no the LED "money" is in the programming ect (or spin).. not the diodes..
Try to convince SORRA to phosphor for a reef light.. good luck w/ that..


we should agree to not really converse.. It's really pointless.

Oreo, are you suggesting that an led unit can be built to mimic say a radium? Which manufacture has the closest spectrum to that bulb as of now? How much would you think it would cost to build one properly?

Thank you

Corey

http://www.3reef.com/threads/build-my-led-20k-radium-and-xb-lights.149395/
When I downsized from my 300 and 3x 250w MH Radiums/Phoenix 14k (could not tell the difference) I bought 2 of these because I loved the color so on my new 180 I installed glass tops used 2 of my older 14K BML's and added two of the BML 20K's. And I waited for the giant reduction in my electrical bill in June, but it never happened.
The advantages of being able to use glass tops and leds is I went from 2 gallons a day evaporation to 2 gallons a week. The fixtures sit right on top of the tank versus large pendants sitting 8" on top of the tank.
I ran MH from 2003/04 to 2016. Positives; great lighting. Lamps lasted 18 months on average with only a 10% decline in PAR. Only three fixtures to light a 300DD with a PAR level on the sand of 200. Cheapest way to light a large tank. Negatives; generally not economical to run them on smaller tanks like 36 x 18. I ran a 250w on my 65 in my office and the heat was excessive to my office. So I run 2 x BML 20K and a BML actinic blue.

 

[chefjpaul]

Posts about metal halide aesthetics always crack me up. If metal halide were not an option, I'd pay an extra grand to have my Orpheks in a fixture that came anywhere close to as good looking as a Giesemann, Sfiligoi, Elos.....

Giesemann anything is sexy lighting.... like a Mercedes compared to a Suzuki.

BTW, Ive been debating on this bad boy.

 

[jda]

These discussions get heated because there is too wide of range of people who have opinions. Anybody who thinks that LED can do the same thing as a MH has not seen enough to know better. You might like one better than another, but they do not do the same things... both ways. Anybody who posts this is either just trying to give everybody a participation trophy or lacks experience. I have never seen a MH where you can change the color with an app on your couch, or a LED that will color and grow some corals like MH can. They are different - both ways - so no need to have a conciliatory post about just loving what you choose or sitting back and laughing at all of the people who can tell the difference trying to explain to some who want to know.

The other reason is that it comes down to degrees of success. If you live in a world where people get judged and graded, often judging themselves from within like all successful adults do, then there are tanks that are better at their craft than others. Not everybody lives in this world all of the time. There are corals that are harder to keep than other even within the same species.

Time is a huge issue too. It is easy to have success for a year, or two, but reefing at a high level for a decade with colonies requires a whole different approach and usually different tools.

Lastly, you get obstacles. Perhaps the most glaring one is the nano reefer who thinks that what they do over their 20 gallon will scale to somebody who has a 24o or 400 gallon tank. Most mean well, but they get quite irritated when people who know this difference point it out.

In the end, the best of the best will be able to see every difference and they know what it is right for them. I live in a very small world for this hobby where I only really care about acropora. Not SPS, but acropora. The vast majority of the people who thrive in this world use mercury-based lighting as a primary - probably 90% plus - but they are in this for the long-term (decade plus), usually have large tanks and they want to be among the best. Some started this way, some took a while to get here. Most are very successful at this hobby. Most pay attention to every detail in this hobby and in their lives. I am acutely aware that this is not the norm, but I am also acutely aware of what it takes to get here.

Details matter everywhere... if you actually owned a fleet and needed them, there are trucks between Ford, GM and Ram that are actually better over the long term for just staying on the road and getting more work done. Probably does not matter much to a homeowner who would never demand too much out their truck, but it does to a fleet manager or a company. Some golf clubs designs are better than others if you are good enough to tell... same with golf balls. It is easy to tell in high-end clothing and shoes/boots, etc. I once drove a Honda Accord to over 500k miles and when I needed to fix something, there were people on the message boards who seriously thought that their civic was the same as a S Class Mercedes or a Maserati Quattroporte. Details matter, especially to the best. There are differences in life.

Nobody wants to hear this, but if you lined up photos of all of the tanks out there, and then judged them by how "good" they are, you would see who uses what equipment, and more than just lighting. Equipment choices tends to converge around experience, skill and desire - money is not as large of a factor as some think since there is cheap used equipment that is better than a lot of new stuff. Some people are not used to being judged on a daily basis, but for those adults who have competed in sports or live at the highest level, they are all good with this since it happens daily. For some comparison, some tanks at WWC, Vivid and at Jason Fox would be nowhere near the top. Copps would probably be #1 along with a lot of people who left the public boards for privates ones because they were sick of arguing with people who were not on their level... some of them still come around to sell their stuff, but they don't help or post anymore. It is totally OK to see a tank on a BRS video and drool, but it is also OK to know that there are people who want to do a lot better than any particular tank.

 

[oreo54]

sounds stressful...................

 

[MnFish1]

Yep I agree totally, and have noticed this myself. A couple years ago I picked up ton (probably 5 digits retail worth) of working halide fixtures, ballasts, etc for 90 dollars from a large LA wholesaler that was switching over to all LED and was dumping off all their halide hardware. Nowadays the stuff is in more demand and that sort of deal can't be gotten on used halide stuff, although it certainly is still in the minority in terms of user base. I wish it could though as I've resold most of the good condition used but working stuff I picked up back then. Could use a few more Cayman sun pendants and m80 ballasts for sure.

Just like the data that I posted - (about reviews) - there is a problem with the as well - maybe everyone that wants to ditch their MH has already done so en masse (when there was a lot of stuff available) - now the people that like MH keep it - and the people that don't like it have given theirs up?

 

[shred5]

These discussions get heated because there is too wide of range of people who have opinions. Anybody who thinks that LED can do the same thing as a MH has not seen enough to know better. You might like one better than another, but they do not do the same things... both ways. Anybody who posts this is either just trying to give everybody a participation trophy or lacks experience. I have never seen a MH where you can change the color with an app on your couch, or a LED that will color and grow some corals like MH can. They are different - both ways - so no need to have a conciliatory post about just loving what you choose or sitting back and laughing at all of the people who can tell the difference trying to explain to some who want to know.

The other reason is that it comes down to degrees of success. If you live in a world where people get judged and graded, often judging themselves from within like all successful adults do, then there are tanks that are better at their craft than others. Not everybody lives in this world all of the time. There are corals that are harder to keep than other even within the same species.

Time is a huge issue too. It is easy to have success for a year, or two, but reefing at a high level for a decade with colonies requires a whole different approach and usually different tools.

Lastly, you get obstacles. Perhaps the most glaring one is the nano reefer who thinks that what they do over their 20 gallon will scale to somebody who has a 24o or 400 gallon tank. Most mean well, but they get quite irritated when people who know this difference point it out.

In the end, the best of the best will be able to see every difference and they know what it is right for them. I live in a very small world for this hobby where I only really care about acropora. Not SPS, but acropora. The vast majority of the people who thrive in this world use mercury-based lighting as a primary - probably 90% plus - but they are in this for the long-term (decade plus), usually have large tanks and they want to be among the best. Some started this way, some took a while to get here. Most are very successful at this hobby. Most pay attention to every detail in this hobby and in their lives. I am acutely aware that this is not the norm, but I am also acutely aware of what it takes to get here.

Details matter everywhere... if you actually owned a fleet and needed them, there are trucks between Ford, GM and Ram that are actually better over the long term for just staying on the road and getting more work done. Probably does not matter much to a homeowner who would never demand too much out their truck, but it does to a fleet manager or a company. Some golf clubs designs are better than others if you are good enough to tell... same with golf balls. It is easy to tell in high-end clothing and shoes/boots, etc. I once drove a Honda Accord to over 500k miles and when I needed to fix something, there were people on the message boards who seriously thought that their civic was the same as a S Class Mercedes or a Maserati Quattroporte. Details matter, especially to the best. There are differences in life.

Nobody wants to hear this, but if you lined up photos of all of the tanks out there, and then judged them by how "good" they are, you would see who uses what equipment, and more than just lighting. Equipment choices tends to converge around experience, skill and desire - money is not as large of a factor as some think since there is cheap used equipment that is better than a lot of new stuff. Some people are not used to being judged on a daily basis, but for those adults who have competed in sports or live at the highest level, they are all good with this since it happens daily. For some comparison, some tanks at WWC, Vivid and at Jason Fox would be nowhere near the top. Copps would probably be #1 along with a lot of people who left the public boards for privates ones because they were sick of arguing with people who were not on their level... some of them still come around to sell their stuff, but they don't help or post anymore. It is totally OK to see a tank on a BRS video and drool, but it is also OK to know that there are people who want to do a lot better than any particular tank.

Another thing is with t-5 and halides is even if it was not the greatest fixture or ballast most used the same bulbs and same for t-5. There was not a big difference from fixture to fixture really.
The thing with led fixtures is they are so different from each other even when using the same type of leds. Different amount of leds or different colors, amount of colors, different channels etc. Also the technology is moving so fast so even the fixtures from the same manufacturer are different from one another. It makes it really hard. If I took a Iwasaki bulb from fixture to fixture there was not a massive difference and they worked.

A another big problem with led fixtures is most used cheap Chinese drivers even with good leds. I work in the industry and this is a big issue because the drivers were not meant to last as long as the actual leds. We are now at the point were this is becoming a huge problem because leds now have been installed long enough. I was just talking with a light manufacturer earlier today that had to go replace all drivers and led boards in their fixtures. We are finally seeing decent warranties on fixtures but those that were giving good warranties on their fixtures are getting hammered with replacements.

The thing about BRS videos is they are tanks only done for a short period of time. Do not get me wrong they have some very informative videos but most are on tanks were they change methods and equipment all the time.
So long term can not be judged. People need to realize their videos main goal is to move and sell product. Success is measured in years not months.

 

[oreo54]

I work in the industry and this is a big issue because the drivers were not meant to last as long as the actual leds.

Yea no different than when flourescent "twist" bulbs became popular..bad electronics.. good bulbs


You are nothing but a cash cow..
Chinese ballast aren't much different..

 

[A. grandis]

Show a link to a study that states halides build stronger SPS skeletons. I have never heard of such a study least of all from Sanjay Joshi.

No study. Personal observations. I've never said study.

 

[A. grandis]

Once more... it comes down to what people are looking for, yes. Point is if they don't know better they don't know.
I strongly believe in most of jda's last post and want to add that when everyone sees pictures of the old time halide/VHO lit systems they are totally amazed by them in all aspects. Even the ones that had some algae and didn't look that clean. Very hard to find tank lit by LEDs that look like that. Go take a closer look and, if you know what to look for, you will find the differences fast.
If the illusion of the electricity savings is what you looking for when keeping your corals, fine.
Many here have posted that there was no difference using electricity when changing from their LEDs to halides. I've said since many years ago it didn't make any difference in my systems when I've tried LEDs. Halides here are on for less hours and I can turn off my T5s while halides are on too. Playing with the different wattage of bulbs available will help you with photoperiod and so on.
Chiller is here and works the same using LEDs, T5s or the Halides. Not an excuse too. Many others posted that in other parts of the country! Not an excuse...
It's going to be impossible for many to believe that those tanks at WWC, Jason Fox and Vivid are not being near the top comparing to those tanks in the past. Unfortunately that's also true.
One more thing... some public aquariums are changing from LED to Halides. Some others aren't yet. Try look and see which are looking better/healthier.
If you are so crazy for your LEDs that can't see the difference please ask kids around you. They won't lie!
Don't trust the kids? Ask your grandma!

 

[A. grandis]

This tank wouldn't even be considered the top of the line back then!! Was probably ok to many.
Can Jake Adams do the same today using Ecotech fixtures in a 4 month old system?
Quote:
"This is the 215 gallon Acropora dominated reef aquarium which I set up and maintain. This aquarium is using 2 full sized vortech pumps, H&S skimmer and reactor, 4 x 250W DE Phoenix 14k halides, 150 lb tonga rock, Aragonite Reactor Media for the substrate and it it about 4 months old. It replaced a 2 yr old 220 and 90% of the corals were grown from frags or aquacultured colonies."

 

[MnFish1]

This discussion is a bit off topic isnt it? Its become the 17.5% (according to the poll above) that use MH trying to convince everyone that MH is best - by showing pictures of tanks. Yet - there are plenty of other tanks using LED that (to my appearance) seem to look as good. If the PAR levels are equal - I just cant see 'why' this would be the case. I also don't understand why - if MH is perfect - why so many fixtures are sold with T5 bulbs?

I had MH lights way back when. to ME personally they were a hassle. Changing bulbs, the heat in the room, etc. Now - I'm fully happy to admit that the newer fixtures are perhaps better - but IDK. I think most people run their LEDS at far too low a setting - which is why the perceived difference. Thats an opinion. I mean I look at some of the tanks and it looks difficult to even see whats in them - except for a few fluorescent frags. Some people like that look - no problem - but to compare that light to MH - I'm not sure is 'fair'.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Just like the data that I posted - (about reviews) - there is a problem with the as well - maybe everyone that wants to ditch their MH has already done so en masse (when there was a lot of stuff available) - now the people that like MH keep it - and the people that don't like it have given theirs up?

Absolutely agree, that is likely true and was not at all lost on me when I made the comment. I'm sure there was a wave of people dumping stuff off for a couple years that has now subsided. That being, said I have noticed a definite uptick in used prices and the overall user base for halide in the los angeles area where I operate. What really sealed it for me was how easy it's been to persuade newer service customers to give halide a try when 4 or 5 years ago it was near impossible since most were so enamored with the features and marketing points that their LEDs were sold with. No customer has ever regretted switching to halide though. I've found if I add or retain a low power RB LED bar for dawn/dusk effect all the customers are just fine with having T5 or halide do the heavy lifting during the growth phase.

There is a phenomena I've noticed that perhaps @jda can comment on. If you grow/color under halide, moving that piece under T5 or LED will see it still display insanely beautiful fluorescence. Grow under T5 and move under LED, still display insane fluorescence, move under halide and it might look good but a bit flat... Grow under LED only, move under T5- looks a bit flat, under halide looks washed out altogether IME. I can only posit that the halide spectrum causes the piece to develop pigments in all the ranges excited by the T5 and LED whereas the LED's more narrow spectrum only hits certain pigment development super hard but leaves others under or non developed altogether which is why, at least to me, I can put a new bright colored piece from an LED grower under one of my Radiums and it gets 'exposed' to an extent for what looks like weak coloration. If I trade a colored up frag from the Radium zone in my tank to an LED grower it looks unbelievable right away. Just my 2c

On a totally different note, one regarding bulb change costs that are oft touted as the big advantage of LEDs- I have one client who runs a 6x54w T5HO on his 75g reef and has refused to change the set of lamps til one of the original 6 burns out. He logs every purchase he makes as he is very value conscious and currently all 6 T5HO lamps I sold him have not burned out in almost 5 years and the tank is still growing corals well. Albeit, significantly dimmer than the first year or so lol. This is definitely an extreme case and against my recommendations for running T5s that long, but it just goes to show for a very budget conscious reefer T5 lamps don't seem to burn out very quickly if one wanted to run them to their full lifespan.

 

[Bpb]

I had MH lights way back when. to ME personally they were a hassle. Changing bulbs, the heat in the room, etc.

I wonder what percentage of top end led users (as in sales, not effectiveness, but brands like radion, kessil, hydra, ect), keep their panels longer than the 18 months or so you can stretch a set of bulbs for. Or those that switch them out as soon as 36 months, either negating the bulb change hassle argument entirely, or getting away with skipping ONE bulb change. Just hypothetical.

I realize the challenge in obtaining that kind of data. I’ve been guilty of retuning my entire lighting system more often than I should, but every time I’ve either broken even or ended up in the green. I’m a bad example. But if I sit and count out every person I am personally friends with in this hobby, as well as some of the more vocal people on forums, people tend to swap their panels out for different brands or just upgraded generations or funnier adding t5 bulbs on a schedule roughly equal to maybe 2 bulb changes.

It’s fine. You’ll not find me arguing what I insist works better. I just think the bulb change argument is too flawed for too many people. I think people can and should use whatever they like. I just wish more people were honest and simple and say “I simply value controllability, form factor, and popularity as the primary factors of importance in a light fixture” and stop saying stuff like “I choose leds because bulb changes are expensive and a hassle” or “they’re too hot and use too much energy”. Because those bottom two aren’t the real truth. And even if someone swears they are, if they did some soul searching and could swallow their pride, they’d admit “I really only chose these because they’re the popular choice, carry a status symbol to them, and they have a sleek look that is most important”

I know every one of you radion users aren’t like Sanjay who nuked his tank with a failed chiller, or paletta who wanted to be rid of a commercial dehumidifier since he kept a 300 gallon tank inside a room the size of a shoebox