NO3 Vs Acropora

[Dburr1014]

Who here is dosing ammonia? I’ve heard it works well or better, but always dosed sodium nitrate.

I have heard of a few people dosing ammonium on r2r but I don't remember who actually.
I don't but have been thinking about dosing it.

 

[Dburr1014]

I did find this;
Post in thread 'Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...-and-or-how-would-one-try.770535/post-8131607

 

[Reefahholic]

I have heard of a few people dosing ammonium on r2r but I don't remember who actually.
I don't but have been thinking about dosing it.

I head it’s pretty dangerous. A small amount can nuke the tank.

 

[Reefahholic]

I did find this;
Post in thread 'Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...-and-or-how-would-one-try.770535/post-8131607

I’ll read this when I wake up this evening.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I have heard of a few people dosing ammonium on r2r but I don't remember who actually.
I don't but have been thinking about dosing it.

Top Shelf has to dose it in a couple of their sps tanks. They use the seachem products for freshwater planted tanks.

 

[Reefahholic]

Top Shelf has to dose it in a couple of their sps tanks. They use the seachem products for freshwater planted tanks.

Have you ever dosed it?

 

[Reefahholic]

Today’s numbers, but I’d like to get the NO3 up a little bit. I’ve doubled the dose since a week ago. Something in the tank is consuming and utilizing it. It’s hard for me to believe that it’s not useful. I’m pretty sure the consumption is primarily from the Acro’s.

 

[EugeneVan]

I head it’s pretty dangerous. A small amount can nuke the tank.

I say just feeding the fish more food and their by products are rich in ammonia is a much safer approach.

 

[Reefahholic]

I say just feeding the fish more food and their by products rich in ammonia is a much safer approach.

I’d say you are correct.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Have you ever dosed it?

I have not
I would if my corals started paling or look starved

 

[Tony616]

My nutrients are stable @
Po4 0.04-0.05
no3 3-5
Alk 8.5
I used to run higher no3 20, po4 0.15+ but I notice my acros don't grow as fast and I get more algaes. Every tank is diff

 

[Hans-Werner]

second I go above .2 I start seeing reduced PE and color, above .4 and I start seeing necrosis

You can never look at one nutrient without looking at all other nutrients at the same time because they are all interconnected, including the micronutrients/trace elements.

If phosphate would really be that detrimental it should be all the time, independent from other conditions in the tank. In fact some reefers just didn't care much about phosphate or tried high phosphate concentrations intentionally (me included) without any negative effects. So the mechanism is most likely a different one: Phosphate or a combination of phosphate and some trace element are limiting coral growth in this tank. Adding phosphate will suspend phosphate limitation and intensifies other limitation(s) with detrimental effects.

Also the mechanisms behind darkening and browning of corals is similar. Phosphate is the limiting nutrient. Adding phosphate may cause a darkening for some time until another nutrient gets limiting to the zooxanthellae, then the colors may be normalizing or even getting better. Finally coral growth is nearly always limited by some nutrient or some combination of nutrients.

If he believes NO3 has little value in a reef, I wonder why he added it to Plus-NP, and NP-Bacto Balance. I’d like to hear his thoughts on that.

Nitrate may be used by corals, but it should never be the only available nitrogen compound because this is the condition most likely causing burns (by the production of reactive oxygen species ROS) in corals and may even kill corals. This is established scientific knowledge. The proportions of nitrate in Plus-NP and NP-Bacto-Balance is only 20 and 25 % respectively. The remaining 80 and 75 % are reduced nitrogen compounds, also some ammonium.

Nitrate is also less detrimental to corals if enough phosphate is available at the same time which is also made sure in both products. This effect is explained with repair mechanisms which are activated by phosphate.

The half saturation constants of nitrate uptake for dinoflagellates are at or below 0.5 ppm. This means concentrations above 1 or 2 ppm nitrate are not of much use as a nutrient. If there are additional effects of nitrate above these concentrations they must not be explained by nitrate as a nutrient but by other mechanisms, i. e. by nitrate being an oxidant, i. e. for bacterial and archaeal respiration and inhibiting iron(III) reduction.

So there is hardly any straightforward and easy approach to explaining the effects of nitrate but the situation is always a bit more complex.

 

[Reefahholic]

You can never look at one nutrient without looking at all other nutrients at the same time because they are all interconnected, including the micronutrients/trace elements.

If phosphate would really be that detrimental it should be all the time, independent from other conditions in the tank. In fact some reefers just didn't care much about phosphate or tried high phosphate concentrations intentionally (me included) without any negative effects. So the mechanism is most likely a different one: Phosphate or a combination of phosphate and some trace element are limiting coral growth in this tank. Adding phosphate will suspend phosphate limitation and intensifies other limitation(s) with detrimental effects.

Also the mechanisms behind darkening and browning of corals is similar. Phosphate is the limiting nutrient. Adding phosphate may cause a darkening for some time until another nutrient gets limiting to the zooxanthellae, then the colors may be normalizing or even getting better. Finally coral growth is nearly always limited by some nutrient or some combination of nutrients.


Nitrate may be used by corals, but it should never be the only available nitrogen compound because this is the condition most likely causing burns (by the production of reactive oxygen species ROS) in corals and may even kill corals. This is established scientific knowledge. The proportions of nitrate in Plus-NP and NP-Bacto-Balance is only 20 and 25 % respectively. The remaining 80 and 75 % are reduced nitrogen compounds, also some ammonium.

Nitrate is also less detrimental to corals if enough phosphate is available at the same time which is also made sure in both products. This effect is explained with repair mechanisms which are activated by phosphate.

The half saturation constants of nitrate uptake for dinoflagellates are at or below 0.5 ppm. This means concentrations above 1 or 2 ppm nitrate are not of much use as a nutrient. If there are additional effects of nitrate above these concentrations they must not be explained by nitrate as a nutrient but by other mechanisms, i. e. by nitrate being an oxidant, i. e. for bacterial and archaeal respiration and inhibiting iron(III) reduction.

So there is hardly any straightforward and easy approach to explaining the effects of nitrate but the situation is always a bit more complex.

Yeah, to be honest the only thing I noticed going up past 20ppm was thicker tissue and deeper colors. As long as I have at least 2-3 ppm I’m good. Never had anything die at that level. Currently I’ve been running around 10 ppm to give a little buffer zone just incase I get a strong growth spurt. When that happens I’ve had both N&P drop to zero pretty fast. That’s been repeated more than once. So now I just try to keep it a little more elevated to hopefully avoid becoming depleted. Not real sure if 10 or 20 is any better than 3. My gut tells me that maybe it gives the coral a little better chance of survival since our tanks are very different than the ocean.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yeah, to be honest the only thing I noticed going up past 20ppm was thicker tissue and deeper colors. As long as I have at least 2-3 ppm I’m good. Never had anything die at that level. Currently I’ve been running around 10 ppm to give a little buffer zone just incase I get a strong growth spurt. When that happens I’ve had both N&P drop to zero pretty fast. That’s been repeated more than once. So now I just try to keep it a little more elevated to hopefully avoid becoming depleted. Not real sure if 10 or 20 is any better than 3. My gut tells me that maybe it gives the coral a little better chance of survival since our tanks are very different than the ocean.

As long as it works well for you and your corals everything is fine!

Explanation must follow observation, not vice versa. The challenge is to find the best explanation for an observation.

 

[Reefahholic]

As long as it works well for you and your corals everything is fine!

Explanation must follow observation, not vice versa. The challenge is to find the best explanation for an observation.

I also try to keep a 50:1 or 100:1 ratio. I observe very little algae or tank issues at those numbers. Claude with Fauna Marine would agree with me there.

With the PO4 at say 0.15ppm, the question becomes just how low can we keep the NO3 without seeing all the funky algae on the glass. Every tank is so different it would be hard to pin down specific numbers.

The ratio in the ocean is much different, but our tanks are ridiculously low on food compared to the ocean. The ocean can sit at residual levels and the corals are very healthy because the bacteria populations and food is plentiful. If I could keep the same amount of food and bacteria that’s in the ocean without it causing a number of issues, I would have no problems running my tank at .02 and 2.


Here’s a frag (CC Voodoo Majick) that came from basically zero nutrients. Surviving only on residuals. Let’s say .01 and 1 on ICP. You can see it is very pale, but with more N&P it will color up and become more healthy. Google that name above and look at what a healthy color should look like:

This would be a healthy frag. Photo credit: TSA

 

[Garf]

I don’t buy into the nutrient thing, and certainly not ratios. Perhaps in the past high nutrients were related to poor husbandry and not reducing other invisible causes, build up of toxins, whatever.

40 no3

 

[shakacuz]

I say just feeding the fish more food and their by products are rich in ammonia is a much safer approach.

i can agree to this!

my no3 is very low(<1ppm), and my po4 is roughly .01-.03ppm(but more on the lower side).

i overfeed ridiculously. most of which settles in the sump and gets eaten by my CUC down there. i can say my corals have nice color, and could be better, but have their color and pop due to still getting the ammonia from the fish!

 

[Reefahholic]

I don’t buy into the nutrient thing, and certainly not ratios. Perhaps in the past high nutrients were related to poor husbandry and not reducing other invisible causes, build up of toxins, whatever.

40 no3

You can look at 50 ICP’s with tank pictures. Most systems keeping 50-100:1 ratio look much better and experience less problems. Sand-bed, back glass, side glass, rocks, etc. The tanks with inverted ratios have all kinds of issues. Cyano, Algae, Dino’s, etc. I’ve seen it over and over again. Not saying you’re having that problem, and I think your corals look healthy, but many other reefers have that problem. We also need to remember that several reefers are only running 150-200 PAR and their tank is basically starving of nutrients. That is a cake walk compared to a tank with 400-500 PAR with hood chemistry and nutrient levels. Once you get to that level a good CUC and a decent ratio becomes more important, but that is just my personal opinion from observations.

If I keep my current tank (14 months) under 0.1 ppm PO4 I get a dark black algae buildup all over the rocks. When I scrape the glass the magnet feels like it’s rub/sticking to the glass instead of sliding. When I raise the PO4 level it glides smoothly, and the black/brown algae’s go away and the rocks look much cleaner. When the level gets really low like .04ppm and down to .01…I get a green dusting first which then turns to a funky brown crap on the lower end. So for me, ratios and nutrient levels are extremely important.

 

[Reefahholic]

i can agree to this!

my no3 is very low(<1ppm), and my po4 is roughly .01-.03ppm(but more on the lower side).

i overfeed ridiculously. most of which settles in the sump and gets eaten by my CUC down there. i can say my corals have nice color, and could be better, but have their color and pop due to still getting the ammonia from the fish!

Yes, and your tank is close to a good ratio. Your back glass is clean and also the rocks.

@Garf what is your PO4?

 

[Hans-Werner]

I also try to keep a 50:1 or 100:1 ratio. I observe very little algae or tank issues at those numbers. Claude with Fauna Marine would agree with me there.

With the PO4 at say 0.15ppm, the question becomes just how low can we keep the NO3 without seeing all the funky algae on the glass. Every tank is so different it would be hard to pin down specific numbers.

There are fundamentally different ways to run reef tanks and it is quite funny that it works in these different ways and corals grow. Maybe in natural reefs we also find these different ways of coral growth but for sure not with the same or even similar characteristics.

A nitrate phosphate ratio of 50:1 or 100:1 again has nothing to do with nutrients. There are no explanations related to the physiology or biochemistry of corals or zooxanthellae. I would like to see an explanation on what this ratio is based except empiricism, just out of curiosity. But as stated, as long as it works for you ...

I can explain the physiological and biochemical background behind my way of running a reef tank and it works well and quite stable over a wide range of very different corals too. Also colors and growth are very good.

The background is that algal growth in reefs is limited by nitrogen (nitrate) and iron. Corals need phosphate for growth and they can't extract it from the rocks and gravel like algae and cyanobacteria do. So I give the corals enough phosphate and trace elements for good growth to outcompete the algae in nitrogen (which simply is not possible with high nitrate ratios or concentrations). Until the low levels of nitrogen (and iron) are achieved the corals may darken, but as soon as the zooxanthellae get nitrogen and iron limited they lighten up and colors of corals improve a lot.

The pastel colors achieved in my way of keeping corals have nothing to do with dangerously low nutrient levels or a critical situation. Nitrogen limitation affects zooxanthellae (algal) pigmentation, that's all. In my experience it is not possible to kill or even damage a coral with nitrogen limitation as long as you have a few fish that get fed in the tank. With phosphate the situation is completely different.

In fact it is vice versa, nitrogen limitation limits zooxanthellae growth (like algal growth in general in reefs) and initiates the energy transfer from zooxanthellae to the other partners of the coral holobiont. Corals may even regulate the behavior of their zooxanthellae by limiting the nitrogen transfer to the zooxanthellae.

In my eyes this is the way that is most stable and makes the least problems, but again experiences may differ.

However, what may cause some problems is the switch from one mode to the other mode of coral growth.