observations of an old salt

[rob s.]

Been in the hobby for 15 years and I gotta spill my guts on this. So many algae filled white rock tanks out there these days. I mean picture after picture of unhealthy looking tanks. Whats up with this trend on starting a sterile dry rock tank?

Why are people so afraid of "pests"? I think the reason pests take hold and reach plague proportions is due to the lack of biodiversity found in these sterilized tanks. I mean I have vermitid snails and red planaria in my reef but they have found a balance in my ecosystem. I have to look hard just to find one flatworm and often times can't. I don't qt fish but my oldest is 12 years. I have so many unnamed critters and bristle worms yet my corals don't get eaten. I have algaes in my tank that can't compete against my Coraline. I relish the moments I discover a new critter in my tank, I certainly don't panic.

If you're new to the hobby just know that there is another way to start a reef that works. You can have a tank that is beautiful from day one. You don't have to go the dry rock route. Look at LIVErock as the single greatest investment in your reefs success.

I hope that a trend will start in the direction of farmed ocean rock. More biodiversity in reefs is needed. No longer will newbies wait for a year or longer for an established tank. No longer will the majority of tanks be a mixture of white, brown, and a handful of tiny unhappy frags.

a GIANT AMEN!! Nice to hear an established and experienced reefer embrace discovery new things and not immediately start with "OMG i gotta dose this and add that!" It gets to be too much. I got into this hobby because i love sea creatures and the ocean. There isn't someone adding this chemical and that chemical on the beaches is there lol. I trust that if i keep my tank monitored by sight and my corals and fish look healthy then i could care less if something i didn't put in there crawls out of my live rock. I found a starfish just yesterday! it's great.

 

[Sump Crab]

I disagree.

"Life will find a way" - Michael Crichton

That's point exactly! The hoops one would need to jump through to keep all pests 100% out of a display would be absolutely staggering. I say let nature work for you rather than battle it. I swear these people saying otherwise are the same types that advocated removing sand dunes at the beach or mangroves in south Florida to better control storm surge with rock walls and bulkheads100 years ago. The same people who thought it a good idea to divert the natural water drainage through the glades into our rivers. I can promise you that nature has found a way to mitigate risks and, for the most part, humans cannot come up with a better way lol.

 

[Snoopdog]

a GIANT AMEN!! Nice to hear an established and experienced reefer embrace discovery new things and not immediately start with "OMG i gotta dose this and add that!" It gets to be too much. I got into this hobby because i love sea creatures and the ocean. There isn't someone adding this chemical and that chemical on the beaches is there lol. I trust that if i keep my tank monitored by sight and my corals and fish look healthy then i could care less if something i didn't put in there crawls out of my live rock. I found a starfish just yesterday! it's great.

<applaud />

 

[Midrats]

Your doser would be SpectraPure (if you were lucky). You might have a Reef Octopus (if you were lucky) and you would be fighting with your Knopp reactor, and your high tech skimmer would have an air stone. But bio balls would be readily available for your wet/dry.

Ohhh and don't forget the people that were still advocating for undergravel filters.

Those were the days

There's a Litermeter running on my tank right now! Love 'em, absolutely bomb proof. My first one back in the day wasn't even digital, it had dials. I bet it would still work if I had it.

We had a Reef Octopus on the display tank at the store I worked at. Along with a couple of Iwasakis and some VHOs.

ETSS and Iwaki forever!

Nothing wrong with a good old air driven skimmer. I have a couple in my equipment heap, one of them a beloved Sander. They get deployed occasionally if I need to set up a temporary tub or something. I'm always amazed at the gunk a fresh limewood diffuser and a Luft pump can pull.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

I also noticed one more thing in my travels this week. Is everyone running more blue lighting than before? I do not remember my lighting being this blue 10 years ago. The defaults on my Red Sea Reefer is way more blue than I am used to, or maybe the tint of blue is off? Sure I can change it but before I do I want to find out why this new thing is happening.

maybe because blue light hides the fact that dry rock is so ugly?

This disinformation in harmful. Starting with dry rock doesn't kill fish. Next, the irony is we dip new corals because we don't want all the bad things that come from other peoples tanks, eh?

People start with "dry, sterile tanks" because they can't get live rock, or it too expensive. Or the local reef store has live rock full of aiptasia and other pests. Or, their live rock comes from tanks with no fish to sustain the bacteria so its barely better than dry.

I'm a strong proponent of life rock. However, live rock has only one clear advantage over dry rock - time. Live rock accelerates tank maturity because the bacteria are already established. Fast forward 6months down the road and live rock is no better than dry.

Most of the killer showcase tank I've seen lately are founded with manufactured rock because the owner doesn't view natural reefs as something to harvest. Yep, they were dry and sterike at one point but now are superior to the OPs.

I probably should not tell you that if the tank is well established like 5 years + I do not dip and will also add the water the coral came in furthermore if I really like the system I will ask to purchase a few pieces of rubble rock if I notice some cryptic sponges etc

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Really man? You honestly think that the only benefit to live rock is time? I mean you really believe this? You don't think that there are benefits to having a diverse ecosystem? You think that the critters nature created to keep a reef balanced have no possible beneficial role in our tanks? And then you bring my tank into question by saying its "inferior" to others? Who are you to say who has a better tank than someone else? I've never had a crash in 15 years. My tanks have changed over time but the rocks have stayed the same. I don't dose so maybe my corals are not crazy fast growers but that's how I chose to enjoy the hobby. Ill still be reefing in 15 more years unlike most of the people with "superior" tanks than mine.

That is what I am pointing to with live rock people complaining about the cost of live rock when your biological filter is the most important thing. I bought cheap but good wave makers instead. There are other things about real old school rock that new people do not fully understand like internal pore structure density and it’s relation to denitrification ability as well as biological complexity which makes the whole system more stable

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Live rock, live rubble, live sand, the same thing for bacteria. Garf already answered this type of thread back in the day. Tampa Bay live rock is just dry rock dumped into the polluted gulf of Mexico. And when they (Tampa Bay) first started were considered a poor choice of live rock. All that said I would love to have an old piece of my Fuji back just because of the aesthetic.

Pukani and Marshall island fan myself

 

[Thespammailaccount]

I disagree.

"Life will find a way" - Michael Crichton

Absolutely

 

[TDEcoral]

I too believe that live rock from the ocean is superior to dry rock and I miss the days when it was freely available. What I don't really understand is why places like Fiji, Tonga, Indo, etc. don't mariculture rock in the same way that TBS and KP Aquatics do in Florida. I imagine that access to good dry rock might be a limiting factor, but they could go with man-made rock like Walt Smith has done.

 

[malacoda]

Where does one even get the stuff. It seems like unobtainium especially during covid.

A few places to check out -- all of which appear to be shipping rock as of this moment:

• Tampa Bay Saltwater (aka TBS) - maricultured rock from the Gulf of Mexico
• KP Aquatics - maricultured rock from the GofM
• livestockusa.org - Walt Smith's maricultured rock from Fiji

I used TBS rock (the entire 'package' actually) on a 20g I set up 5 years ago. Incredible diversity as it ships in water ... which also means no curing needed. Too many corals, sponges, crabs, snails, feather dusters, barnacles and other critters to list.

Never used KP Aquatics rock but many folks on the forums have report good things.

Used Walt's Fiji maricultured on the 65g I set up 14 months ago. Ships in wet newspaper, so needs curing (mine cured quick ... in ~8 days) ... and not as much immediate biodiversity. But within about 3 months I was starting to see bi-valves, various tunicates, sponges, encrusting SPS (may be branching ... to soon to tell), zoanthids, and some nice-looking stalks of calcareous algae that I foolish removed before discovering they were a desirable macro rather than invasive ... along with an occasional bubble or two of bubble algae and vertemid or two (all easily handled.).

 

[TDEcoral]

A few places to check out -- all of which appear to be shipping rock as of this moment:

• Tampa Bay Saltwater (aka TBS) - maricultured rock from the Gulf of Mexico
• KP Aquatics - maricultured rock from the GofM
• livestockusa.org - Walt Smith's maricultured rock from Fiji

I used TBS rock (the entire 'package' actually) on a 20g I set up 5 years ago. Incredible diversity as it ships in water ... which also means no curing needed. Too many corals, sponges, crabs, snails, feather dusters, barnacles and other critters to list.

Never used KP Aquatics rock but many folks on the forums have report good things.

Used Walt's Fiji maricultured on the 65g I set up 14 months ago. Ships in wet newspaper, so needs curing (mine cured quick ... in ~8 days) ... and not as much immediate biodiversity. But within about 3 months I was starting to see bi-valves, various tunicates, sponges, encrusting SPS (may be branching ... to soon to tell), zoanthids, and some nice-looking stalks of calcareous algae that I foolish removed before discovering they were a desirable macro rather than invasive ... along with an occasional bubble or two of bubble algae and vertemid or two (all easily handled.).

I've been eyeing the Walt Smith live rock for my new tank I'm setting up. Do you like the shapes and does it look good? Did it have good coralline coverage? Overall, would you prefer TBS or Walt Smith? I bought 30 lbs of KP Aquatics live rock a while back and I'm pretty happy with it. It also ships covered in newspaper, so a good amount of hitchhikers didn't make it, but a lot still survived.

 

[Snoopdog]

All of you old salts, please answer me this! What is your beliefs on things like dosing and water changes? For things like calcium do you use two part, kalk or a reactor? Do you believe in water changes? There is so much value in listening to people that have been doing this for ages, much like listening to a gardener with a green thumb.

 

[Sump Crab]

All of you old salts, please answer me this! What is your beliefs on things like dosing and water changes? For things like calcium do you use two part, kalk or a reactor? Do you believe in water changes? There is so much value in listening to people that have been doing this for ages, much like listening to a gardener with a green thumb.

I think people will be all over the place on this one. Personally I don't dose anything at all, never have. Just seems complicated to me and I don't want to test my water all the time. I never test my water, haven't in years. I have the kits just in case something looks wrong though. I think water changes are important in a new reef but not nearly as important in an old one. I don't do many water changes. Maybe 3 or 4 a year. Admittedly I think my corals would grow faster with more changes but that does not matter much to me.

 

[tvan]

All of you old salts, please answer me this! What is your beliefs on things like dosing and water changes? For things like calcium do you use two part, kalk or a reactor? Do you believe in water changes? There is so much value in listening to people that have been doing this for ages, much like listening to a gardener with a green thumb.

It all depends on what's happening in "your" environment.

 

[DukeSilver]

I'm surprised conservation hasn't come up (besides one advocating against it). Conservation was the leading reason for me to go Dry, and the one that made the Pros of Dry outweigh the Cons. Over the last 10 years the hobby has started to come around on sustainability, as it has realized as a whole, the collection model, is not sustainable into the future. That being said farming live rock isn't the greatest threat to the hobby's sustainability, but a comprehensive approach is always more desirable.

My new setup has the goal of +90% aqua cultured Coral and Fish. Non live farmed rock was a requisite as well. So for me personally this was the way to go...and that's the key....for me personally.



Post Script,
I was elated to find out only 15 years made me an old head in the hobby, When I hired out on the railroad one needed 30 years for that designation

PPS,
My observations are meant to be taken as just that, observations. Live harvested rock was the subject of my discussion not live seeded rock, lfs seeded rock, etc

 

[DSEKULA]

Very interesting read, thank you for sharing!
I started in this hobby about 4 years ago and like most inexperienced noobs walked into a lfs and got instructions to start reefing.. fast forward and I have realized they gave me some horrible advice not necessarily related to live rock

But, it's worth mentioning that there was never a mention of different ways to start. I was stocked up with x amount of white rock and bottles of bacteria and sent on my way, it was presented to me that this was how to start and I feel like many of us noobs were essentially taught the same way potentially just due to the industry heading that way not necessarily malicious intent etc. As I've learned more and rebuilt the system to my liking I did get a bunch of white dead rock to cement for my pleasure of scaping but I also hunted down some chunks of auctual live rock to help seed the system. I feel like this is a part of the hobby that is getting lost in translation to the newer generation of reefers not because we necessarily prefer dead rock but because it's not being presented as an option. I understand there are many paths to success and not knocking any method but that's my experience as a newer reefer. I feel like there are probably new reefers out there that, like me weren't even told there were other options and may have liked to have educated like those expressed in this thread.

 

[EMeyer]

However, live rock has only one clear advantage over dry rock - time. Live rock accelerates tank maturity because the bacteria are already established. Fast forward 6months down the road and live rock is no better than dry.

This doesnt seem to be supported by the evidence. I've yet to see any data showing a high diversity dry rock tank, except those where the owner took very specific steps to introduce diversity. I'm always a little puzzled by this statement -- where do people imagine the microbes are going to come from? They dont just happen.

And even if it were true that given enough time, the microbial communities became similar... it wouldnt change the other advantage of real live rock: porosity.

Mined and man-made rocks are as porous as bricks or concrete, while real live rock (=dead coral skeletons) are more like a sponge full of holes and channels.

In my opinion, the switch from live rock to dry rock has been driven by economic interests of large aquarium supply companies, and by over-zealous environmentalists who reflexively oppose any harvest of natural products, more than by any evidence that dry rock is a good way to start a tank.

 

[Vette67]

All of you old salts, please answer me this! What is your beliefs on things like dosing and water changes? For things like calcium do you use two part, kalk or a reactor? Do you believe in water changes? There is so much value in listening to people that have been doing this for ages, much like listening to a gardener with a green thumb.

I will happily give you my opinion. This is how I do things. Water changes. I do 10% about once a month, month and a half. I have found this to be adequate for me. But water changes is one part of a nutrient export strategy. I mostly do water changes to clean out the detritus that accumulates in the bottom of my sump and BB 75. I think if you don’t have a large skimmer and large refugium, then more frequent water changes would be necessary. And I have never, even once, cleaned my gravel. Ok, I tore my tank down in 2012 to deal with a GHA outbreak, so may I did ONCE.

For calcium, I use a calcium reactor and kalk. I used to only do a calcium reactor until I added a derasa clam. This clam grows about 1 inch of shell every 6 months, and I’m convinced uses more calcium than the rest of my acros! I would have lost interest in the hobby years ago if I had to dose 2 part every day or every other day. For longevity, things need to be as hands off as possible. This means ATO is a must. Automatic feeders are a must, unless you enjoy feeding your fish manually 2-3 times a day, for 23 year’s. Calcium reactor is a must. Set it and forget it. Buy a new CO2 tank ever year or so, and refill the arragonite media chamber every year or so.

I probably should test more than I do, but things are generally in range when I do test, so that detracts from my motivation to test more. The only thing I add with any regularity is magnesium. It is an often overlooked but important mineral to maintain. I’ve never heard of aminos, and don’t know what they do. I don’t know what bottled bac is and have never used it. I think people are too quick to look for cures in a bottle with reefing now, instead of looking for natural solutions. Most problems can be dealt with if you search for a biological instead of chemical solution to the problem.

The only other thing I have considered, but still haven’t tried, is trace elements. Again, after not using them for 23 years, and having spectacular acro growth, It’s hard to find motivation to start now, but I am interested to see if there would be a benefit.

OK. I’ll get off my soap box now.

 

[Snoopdog]

The only other thing I have considered, but still haven’t tried, is trace elements. Again, after not using them for 23 years, and having spectacular acro growth, It’s hard to find motivation to start now, but I am interested to see if there would be a benefit.

And that is what I am looking for, what has worked for longs periods of time.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Over the past 50+ years, I've set up 15-20 systems all with live rock. I never once had a mantis shrimp or anything horrible. Yes, I've had my share of aiptasia, but if you get something undesirable, just deal with it. For any newbie getting into the hobby, your biggest mistake will be to NOT use live rock.

Cost should not be a factor. It will cost you more from failures if you don't use live rock. I know live rock today (FL and Gulf rock) is not as pretty in shape as it use to be, but it is still loaded with the micro-organisms that are needed. Consider rock from KP Aquatics for a nice shape and from LiveRockNReef for rock LOADED with life! (I would suggest a 50:50 mix).

And regarding the "conservation" argument: I'm not sure the ocean will be harmed or run out of rock (especially when maricultured rock is taken from land and put in the ocean). And, if we are going to even talk about this, then we certainly should not be taking fish and other marine life out of the oceans for our selfish enjoyment.....but I won't go there.