observations of an old salt

[Clownfish_Boy]

My sentiments exactly. If you are going to do a reef, you should try to have a diversity of life in like manner to a reef in the wild. Sure, there is a slight risk of something wiping out the tank, but that is just one of the hazards of true reefing.

 

[Vette67]

Have you measured the bacteria that are actually in the "live sand" at petco? I have. There are very few kinds, at very low levels, and they are *not* marine bacteria that you want in your tank.

But... But... The guys on Tanked say that's how you cycle an aquarium instantly is with sand in a bag. I'm SOOO confused!

 

[WVNed]

It's not possible to have nice tanks with the stuff you can get now. Might as well not even try.
Nothing but diseases, pests and death. Unless your name is Paul and you can get regular transfusions straight from the mother ocean.

I actually don't believe that at all. Take what you can get and make it work.
Maybe my views are a little distorted.

 

[Clownfish_Boy]

It's not possible to have nice tanks with the stuff you can get now. Might as well not even try.
Nothing but diseases, pests and death.

That is why I am now doing fish only ! I just don't want to take the risk of something wiping out my tank; that is quite an investment to lose....

 

[Paul B]

Live rock (or any rock) was not available when I started my tank so I always took rocks from the ocean with as much life on it as I could find. I am in New York so many of the creatures did not survive but I assume the bacteria did.

I also used to take garden soil and dump it in for bacteria.
After captive reefs were available, when I bought a coral, I would ask for anything on the bottom of their tank that had any type of life in it.

Refugium or sump "mulm" is a great source of life.
I never worried about pests as they were never a great problem and 100% of the time left on their own with no help from me.
The only pest I have now is sponge that covers all the available real estate in my tank and I am sure will always be there but I am old so I probably won't have a tank very many years longer.

I feel diversity is the key to this hobby. I also feel dry rock, quarantine, medications etc, are the downfall of it. As my reef grew older as did I, I have been going more and more towards a natural tank with natural food, natural water, natural bacteria and bio diversity.

I have not had to quarantine or medicate anything in probably 45+ years and never lost a fish to a communicable disease. I think it is the naturalness of the system and lack of store bought "cures" that allows my system to flourish with out the problems many Noobs have.

Algae, flatworms, cyano, ich etc. all takes care of themselves with no help from me except providing bio diversity and natural foods with living bacteria like nature intended.

Now I am going to go eat some worms.

 

[HuduVudu]

Live rock (or any rock) was not available when I started my tank so I always took rocks from the ocean with as much life on it as I could find. I am in New York so many of the creatures did not survive but I assume the bacteria did.

I also used to take garden soil and dump it in for bacteria.
After captive reefs were available, when I bought a coral, I would ask for anything on the bottom of their tank that had any type of life in it.

Refugium or sump "mulm" is a great source of life.
I never worried about pests as they were never a great problem and 100% of the time left on their own with no help from me.
The only pest I have now is sponge that covers all the available real estate in my tank and I am sure will always be there but I am old so I probably won't have a tank very many years longer.

I feel diversity is the key to this hobby. I also feel dry rock, quarantine, medications etc, are the downfall of it. As my reef grew older as did I, I have been going more and more towards a natural tank with natural food, natural water, natural bacteria and bio diversity.

I have not had to quarantine or medicate anything in probably 45+ years and never lost a fish to a communicable disease. I think it is the naturalness of the system and lack of store bought "cures" that allows my system to flourish with out the problems many Noobs have.

Algae, flatworms, cyano, ich etc. all takes care of themselves with no help from me except providing bio diversity and natural foods with living bacteria like nature intended.

Now I am going to go eat some worms.

I think one of the keys of successful salt water aquariums is the ability to safely ignore the tank for long periods of time.

Controlled systems that require constant attention always seem to fail spectacularly because their burned out owners miss one of the many steps they must do every day to keep their tank healthy. These controlled tanks may look beautiful, but I have yet to see one of these tanks last long term, some unfortunate circumstance always seems to bring them down.

The difference between Paul's tank and the earlier pic of two large tanks is stark.

It is shocking when you just kind of let the tank do it's thing and watch it in the periphery and then one day you do a close inspection and find all sorts of new kewl stuff, or things growing seemingly fast because you never really check on them.

 

[Thaxxx]

It's not possible to have nice tanks with the stuff you can get now. Might as well not even try.
Nothing but diseases, pests and death. Unless your name is Paul and you can get regular transfusions straight from the mother ocean.

I actually don't believe that at all. Take what you can get and make it work.
Maybe my views are a little distorted.

Ned, I see room for a nice comfy couch to nap on between those tanks

 

[SteveG_inDC]

This is a great thread and I appreciate the OP's perspective. I started in the hobby about 15 years ago too and have seen reefing philosophies come and go and return and evolve. It's good to learn from established tanks and experienced reefers.

However, anyone reading the thread needs to remind themselves that for every reefer here writing about their 20-year old tanks and whatnot, there are hundreds who started and gave up. Those people may have implemented the same approaches but didn't get lucky. They spent years battling hair algae, valonia, coral pests, aiptasia, and so forth. I was one of those people. It's not fun. I lost a lot of time and livestock and the hobby was not as fun and rewarding as it could be.

I am starting a new tank, but this time I am going to introduce biodiversity in a much more controlled way. I did love all the surprises that came crawling out of my rock with the last two tanks, but I'm willing to forgo that this time around. I have about 100 lbs of rock from another reefer (had lots of pests) sitting in a covered bin of saltwater with a powerhead for 6 months now. Hopefully I'm just keeping the bacteria. We'll see what happens.

 

[HuduVudu]

However, anyone reading the thread needs to remind themselves that for every reefer here writing about their 20-year old tanks and whatnot, there are hundreds who started and gave up.

This is called survivorship bias, and it isn't hundreds it's thousands. It's what makes things seem easier than they really are.

I am starting a new tank, but this time I am going to introduce biodiversity in a much more controlled way.

This is an oxymoron.

The reason so many fail in this and any other hobby for that matter is because they are unwilling to grasp the fundamental nature of the thing that they are doing. The harder they fight the worse it becomes for them. They have to give in to the truth and nature of what they are doing. It isn't easy the biggest battles aren't with the problem dejour e.g. dino's or ich or whatever it is with the reality that they won't accept. We are our own worst enemies and the harder we work to see what is being conveyed to us through our tank the more "successful" we will be.

I wish you luck on your second journey.

 

[shred5]

Problem is now there are more pest than ever with dry rock because nothing to hold them back. Diversity is the key. Look how many threads on Dinos and other algae, bubble algae, vermetid snails. Going to dry rock has not slowed down hitch hikers but increased them. I mean seriously look how many people have dinos now. why is that, lack of diversity.


I had a live rock tub full of live rock. It was set up for over a year with just circulation and light. It also became a holding tank till one of my systems was done so there was a few corals and fish in it too.. There was a few pieces of bubble algae in there but never went anywhere. Well I decided to throw some dead Marco rock in there to cycle it. Well within months it was cover with bubble algae while the other rock never had any increase.



Another tank I had set up with dead rock again and this time dinos hit hard. Threw a few pieces of live rock in and within a few weeks all dinos gone.



The problem is it is almost impossible to keep 100 percent of the stuff out even with quarantine. You might be able to keep allot of the major stuff out but stuff like cyno or dino will make it in eventually. Plus how many really quarantine? How many cut frag plugs off? How many dip? Also LPS are so much harder because you can not cut the base off like a frag plug. So easy for something to ride in on a lps skeleton.

To me it is weird how people freak out over everything now days. OMG I got a little cyno. So what it is part of the bio diversity and is natural. When it gets bad it is telling you something is out of balance. Mst likely something is leaching phosphates and a problem needs to addressed. That cyano is easy to remove and is up taking nutrients. With it gone those nutrients will build and something worse will happen. Thing is cyno can help hold back dinos from my observations.

I can understand someone who farms and sell coral not wanting pest because now a days is would stink to give someone else these pest.

Also live rock is not hard to get nowadays. Aqua-cultured rock is widely available. Even live rock is starting to trickle in.. I saw some GMP rock available but man it was pricey.

Nothing wrong with dead rock either. The thing is it is not easier and needs to be taken way slower and if you get a pest there is nothing to stop it. Since starting my aquaculture system I cant have pests and stopped with live rock. My quarantine method is sever though and is only meant to keep out flat worms, bubble algae, red bugs, vermetid snails etc. My tanks also sit with just bacteria and certain things like copepods for along time.

 

[tony'stank]

I’ve been in the hobby 37 years. I agree with the observations stated here. However I must point out that it is difficult to get live rock today. There are fewer LFS. The LFS that have survive carry real reef rock and other alternatives. Most collecting sites have banned live rock harvesting. The only option is Mari and aquaculture rock. While good they don’t really have the diversity of live rock and their livestock is subtropical and not coral reef origin. The biggest obstacle is the quantity and price that must be purchased. This is beyond what most new hobbyists need and can afford. That makes starting with dry rock a better alternative. It may take 2 years but you will end up close to the same place

 

[tvan]

This must be a lie!

Non-porous porous concrete....

 

[Thaxxx]

I’ve been in the hobby 37 years. I agree with the observations stated here. However I must point out that it is difficult to get live rock today. There are fewer LFS. The LFS that have survive carry real reef rock and other alternatives. Most collecting sites have banned live rock harvesting. The only option is Mari and aquaculture rock. While good they don’t really have the diversity of live rock and their livestock is subtropical and not coral reef origin. The biggest obstacle is the quantity and price that must be purchased. This is beyond what most new hobbyists need and can afford. That makes starting with dry rock a better alternative. It may take 2 years but you will end up close to the same place

The 2 years wait isn't gonna happen with the impatient reefers around here. As far as the price of LR. And I mean real live rock shipped full submerged from Tampa Bay Saltwater with no to little die off, your right, it's not cheap, on the other hand, buying a single $800 light is exspensive too. I would make my spending priority the life of the tank on the top of the list. Tampa Bay Saltwater now imports made made rock from Walt Smith to seed with. I watched their video and they said the man made rock accumulated life faster than mined rock when harvested.

 

[HuduVudu]

This must be a lie!

Non-porous porous concrete....

Why are you so mad?

Yes live sand can be helpful, but it doesn't come anywhere near the biodiversity of "real" live rock. I have used that sand before in the 90's and I got pretty much the same results as your pictures.

If live sand is all you have then it is all you have, but there are far better and prettier (interesting) ways to establish tanks than live sand. If you want to use it fine but don't banter about like it is the only or even the best way, it isn't.

 

[Paul B]

This is a picture of my tank, I don't know, maybe 25 or more years ago. I think it looked the most natural then as I had seaweeds and other things I collected in the sea. (yes, I realize we don't all live near the sea, your fish don't care)

More and more over the years I stopped using anything store bought. They didn't have bacteria in a bottle when I started and I am happy about that because I think it is silly. So is Flatworm Exit.
The only medication we had was copper and after 10 or so years I found out I didn't need that either.

This hobby keeps getting more and more expensive but I find myself spending less and less.
Much of my food comes from a Supermarket and some of my additives also come from there. I only dose alk and calcium which I do by hand and buy in dry bulk so it is pennies. I don't think I spend $100.00 a year on dosing, probably much less.

You have to feed the fish anyway so how hard is it to pour in an ounce of whatever you want to dose?

I have had flatworms quite a few times. They cover everything for a few weeks, then get bored and leave. Algae does the same thing as long as you don't do something stupid and try to remove those things artificially.

 

[forestsofkelp]

Having kept reefs on and off for 10 years, I agree, there is nothing to "fear" from live rock. Yes, if you buy 250 lbs of fresh reef rock you will probably get a pest or two and some die off. Time to put your reef keeper skills to the test. But if you buy 20lbs and inspect it? You are probably fine. The all-dead-rock-to-live-rock method is a painful process.

And while I recognize a lot of reefers have quit over time due to LR/algae issues, I think this is primarily due to people not being properly invested in the hobby. I kept a 20g with weekly water changes and no skimmer for years. I learned a lot. I think the people who have problems are those who buy a tank bigger than they can handle (honestly, a 60g tank is big if you are new), who move too fast (I let tanks cycle/settle for 3-5 months before putting anything in), or who just have high expectations...if you are new, you need to be keeping xenia, GSP, and cheap hammer corals etc..not LPS and SPS. I wouldn't even look at an SPS until you've had a stable tank for a year.

Reefkeeping is a much more difficult hobby than most people think. You have to have time and knowledge or lots of cash. A big old beautiful reef tank (a real one) doesnt just appear. My friend wants to set one up (eg have me set it up). He has no interest in testing. He wants to know the best company to "take care of it". It's doomed to fail (I advised against it).

I think LR is a similar mentality. A lot of people want dead rock because its "clean". Well, thats not always a good reason. Pests are real. But its not *that* hard to get rid of them most of the time. And you learn something in the process. A reef tank is not predictable..you either need to build some backup/randomness/bio system into it or rely on really heavy export and control.

With the internet as well, its much easier to learn new methods for controlling pests and algae. I've learned some new techniques in the last 2 years I am very eager to try out.

 

[tvan]

Not true, live rock is still available. Its just harder to get.

Have you measured the bacteria that are actually in the "live sand" at petco? I have. There are very few kinds, at very low levels, and they are *not* marine bacteria that you want in your tank.

No, concrete is not porous just because of some drips. Break it open. There are no air spaces unless you break out a microscope. Now break open a piece of actual live rock. Big spaces, in the mm to cm size range.

These are measurable, testable things...

I am not mad @HuduVudu. CaribSea is petco sand. I spent hours blowing out the passages in my concrete shelf supports. I watched Garf start out being ridiculed. Tampa Bay live rock as well. And they are still around. My old salt opinion is, if you can farm it in the ocean, you can farm it in your tank(without the micro plastic).

 

[HuduVudu]

I am not mad @HuduVudu. CaribSea is petco sand. I spent hours blowing out the passages in my concrete shelf supports. I watched Garf start out being ridiculed. Tampa Bay live rock as well. And they are still around. My old salt opinion is, if you can farm it in the ocean, you can farm it in your tank(without the micro plastic).

Sorry I missed the sarcasm.

I remember GARF. It always shocked me because I started this hobby in Boise and because I was a kid I had no idea that they were close or even doing the things they were doing. The pet store/nursery that I worked out had Salt Water with undergravels and I was so shocked at the death and the ugliness. I so wanted to do better, but had no idea how. It was a big deal back then for me to figure out that you need to start tanks with distilled water not city or well water.

 

[CindyKz]

Sure, there is a slight risk of something wiping out the tank, but that is just one of the hazards of true reefing.

What single organism can wipe out an entire tank by virtue of it's existence? I don't know of any, but I've only been in the hobby 4 years and there is a lot that I don't know. Most of the "pests" people describe are just that, pests. Nuisances. Not all that dangerous and certainly not capable of single-handedly wiping out a tank.

That was an honest question for anyone who can answer it.

 

[tvan]

man....