Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

NS, what is your opinion as to why everyone in reefing starts out this way above but then deviates to at least some form of cleaning and changes?

I believe that the idea that a reef system should function as a self-contained unit with minimal (or no) maintenance is rooted in the notion that a properly functioning ecosystem should be completely self-sustaining. The comment I've heard many times is, "We see this in nature, so why not in our aquariums?". And so, this becomes the ideal for some aquarists. Human nature also tends to gravitate to the 'easiest way' (some might say the 'laziest way'), so this idea fits in perfectly :)

The reality is that our aquariums, no matter how large, are not a part of the natural reef system. Sure, a very large aquarium can appear to be self-sustaining for many, many years using the hands-off approach, but what we see in many old tank threads is that without some type of physical removal of detritus/mulm in the display tends to eventually buildup to detrimental levels in today's typical well stocked reef systems. Might take 10 or 15 years in very large systems (depending on bioload, feeding, etc.), and since many of these systems are taken down before then, the slow system decline may not even be noticed (let alone get to a critical stage).

Scaled down small Nano and Pico aquaria are excellent study subjects to see the effects of excess detritus buildup as it tends to happen much more quickly due to the small water volume/high bioload.

Ralph.
 
Last edited:
The 500 gallon is too much dilution to claim neutrality of detritus in my opinion... no large system gets to make commentary on it, only small ones do.

that 29 gallon one that doesn’t look like twenty yrs of compiled detritus? Am expecting sandbed would be five inches of brown sludge capping off a white strata we could see in cross section pics... am thinking surely/occasionally he'd need to siphon up a bit off the top right? At least since I was in school?

I dont get the dilution arguement if it produces a proportional amount of detritus. 1 fish in a 10g vs 5 in a 50g vs 50 in a 500g. It's the same thing if they are all the same size etc. It's the proportion that matters not the size of the tank
 
...
 
Last edited:
another, just now

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/to...algae-gone-wild/?tab=comments#comment-5640149



Passes drop test now.
These cleaned tanks are now -hungry- for your best reef feed because the sand and organics reserve was just flushed out fully.

You'll hit a growth spurt because you can feed more without showing the signs of eutrophication Cleaning work is the cost of doing sandbed business, and I'm enjoying my dsb which would only get a B- on a drop test, been lazy two months. Still wiggle room for a little while longer

Before, with a highly cloudy sandbed, during, and after:
D2E46A7E-3858-4B0A-BA96-D3E0F5CE381A.jpeg

693EA029-51E6-4E38-8140-324F33BEFD4A.jpeg

2E17CDB7-CAF8-470D-847B-1CAC7CA39751.jpeg
 
Last edited:
**THE ROCK CLEANING POST****



some non compliant outcomes. They'd think Im cherry picking if I didn't link two challenges...nanos, the ones Im most comfortable with, having growback issues (and in fact causatives here if applicable are worth dissecting, has our method really hit a wall?)

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/388783-algae-id-help-needed/


and:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/pico-4g-cyano-infection.360634/page-2#post-4542141


questions: was the sand rinse thread applied completely, at once, or was it partially applied where portions of the invader were left in the systems?

It's ultra rare that we have two rip cleans three mos apart to track differences in outcomes and approach in the very same thread.


A mention on cleaning rock:

when nano reefs are using rip cleaning to beat cyano and or dinos that were previously allowed to dominate the entire system, its important to clean off the rocks and maybe even use peroxide correctly so that reinstated rock doesn't contaminate a clean system.

We may need to express the detritus out of rocks as much as we do with our sandbeds, and in the rare cases where rocks really are an issue the way you express them is to clean the diaper up under them correctly :) then you take out the rocks that have been covered in matted materials, plugging up all the pores with P detritus and use light brushing and clean saltwater rinse to flush them out

as you clean the rocks off, set one in a clean sw bucket with air stone circulation. the rest go back into a perfectly cleaned nano, refugium clean included.

The test rock sits bubbling a day or two in a white (preferably) test bucket with an airstone. the next day 24-36 hours, shut off the circulation and take the rock out and let things settle. if there's not much detritus at all, you're good and a one off cleaning of the WHOLE system is likely to work in one pass.

if that test bubbled cleaned rock expressed lots of detritus into the test bucket after you removed its filth tarp, enough to surprise you in 24 hours, then expect to have to hand guide out your invader for a little while (stay dedicated, never farm them, that's your old habits) in the rest of the tank. those rocks now cleaned will express their detritus into your system over time, your exports must match and sustain (the work everyone wants to escape from) and you'll now be removing that, vs storing it

Key recurring theme here: we don't care about your param readings, we care about rock and sandbed detritus and basic refusal of invasion all ten pages leading right up to the first round of noncompliant tank challenges.

A thread of reefing outcomes doesn't require testing nor parameter communication, and to do so causes hesitation and second guessing and that's what invaders need...call that a rare bird?


In prior pages we reacted only to things we could actually see in the tank (clouding/detritus/actual invader, we remove these always) we never reacted once here to what a test kit said.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Hi there,
This thread caught my eye and I'd like to ask a couple of questions.

Firstly, you say that in order to get rid of the detritus, one should rinse the sand with tap water, then saltwater. However, I thought that rinsing live sand with tap water, which contains chlorine (we all know that chlorine=antibacterial), would kill the bacteria in the sand. I get that saltwater's used as a final rinse to get rid of chlorine. So basically, with rip rinsing one's getting rid of any detritus and also kills the majority, if not all of the bacteria in the sand. Is that correct?

Secondly, when aquascaping, what's your take regarding rock placement on stilts? Given that the sandbed is only 1 inch deep, is this a practice that could have an advantage, or it's just too much hassle for nothing?

Thanks in advance!
Chris
 
Love it. Thanks tons for posting

Up for the best science test of the week? Let's do a digestion test of the sand to see if tap rinsing kills it.


The more that run this test, the more data plots we have to riff from but at least someone do this test... it's the only way we'll know for sure.

Because this test measures ammonia digestion, we are making a 1 ppm water system quick n fast by dosing a bare bottom five gallon tank using ammonium chloride, a high quality non API ammonia kit (mr seneye, from the syeneye ammonia monitor thread pls join up here) or use salifert or Red Sea. We need to see ammonia at 1 ppm go down from rinsed materials in saltwater vs/rinsed in tap.

an oversized sponge filter meant for say forty gallons or better, for biomodeling my claim, cycled, is ideal. That rascal can digest 1 ppm in 24 hrs...heavy bubbled, in five gallons. Might could do six ppm heh, 1 for my test is good as we don't have all yr to get data.

Once someone has any small test Home Depot bucket bubbling with a sponge filter cycled which is huge for your volume, begin your baseline:


Dose water to exactly one ppm.

Measure in 24 hours...as soon as system can oxidize that to zero *in 24 hrs* this test is ready.

Change the water back out to fresh salt water, reset from prior test back to clean.

Rinse that sponge filter out decently with tap, then put it back, set system back to one ppm using AC/quality test.

Collect 24 hour results AND 48 hr results and then results on the fourth day after that single redose back to one ppm... post a three reading ammonia level retake plot for the tap rinsed sponge filter spanning 24/48 and four days


Now even if I'm in complete attribution error, we have zero tank losses and I've been having people flip their beds like pancakes :) so by holding course we're basically guaranteed to get another eleven pages without loss even with the real variable at work that we don't know about.

The truth is, some bacteria are removed by any form of stasis change... rinse event vs biota used to gentle bubble current means some ride down the drain but some are housed in biofilm, till you use bleach. That regrowth is my forty eight hour and four day readings above.


We could wash our raw chicken contact surfaces dishes and prep saws in cool tap, and be safe, if tap was a good short term contact sterilizer and film debrider

They're incidental, the portion of bac we kill. If someone is running a sandbed only system, with a massive bioload above it, perhaps we go differently but by rule we show here that res publica has TOO MUCH extra surface area vs too little, so hammering some bacteria out pales in comparison to the benefit of flushing out literal rotted waste.

We know that live rocks takeover from sand losses, we see that in bare bottom tank threads where the keeper just yanks the bed.


If one person runs my test and finds a total loss of filtration ability by day four from a brief tap rinse, that's not the same as ten people reporting it. Out of ten thousand views on this thread, for sure at least ten readers already have the hardware and bio ware for this test.


That will be the single most important test to determine microbiological fact about rinse impacts.
 
Last edited:
Interesting read. I have sort of done this although not in a orderly manor I must say. To me the Ocean(s) get battered around by many things but most of all Mother Nature via storms. So in my tanks at least once a year I just really heavily disturb the sandbed everywhere I can. Tank will look like the middle one in post #204 without the arm in it :) Seems to more or less work out ok. In prior tanks I would have to be careful though since I usually have the small clams from IPSF. I've started with 4 and swear they increased in numbers but not sure if they do in home aquaria - anyway they do and they sort of move around and will startle you because you forget they are in there.
 
Hey Brandon,
Thanks for the fast reply.

I'm not questioning your method. Maybe I'm overthinking things.
That's a great way to test any bacteria elimination after rip cleaning. I've 20lbs of brand new Caribsea Arag-alive. I'll dump it in a bucket as it is, with a heater and a powerhead and add 1 ppm ammonia. I have a salifert ammonia test kit, so I'll measure it after 24 hrs. If it's alive indeed, then the ammonia reading should be 0. Then I'll rinse it thoroughly and repeat the test. I'm very intrigued to see what's going to happen.
 
It's an honor for your first series of posts to be here :) really neat welcome to Reef2reef it's fun advanced work round here glad to have you.

Saf1 I'm jealous you have those clams I want some! If I ever found some I think they could be picked free carefully before I blast clean, then put back. I already have a hitchhiker basic common black clam live rock rider who is alive and well a couple yrs now. He's the stuck to live rock kind so when it's lifted out for cleaning he rides with it

Since my system runs clean, it's the roti feast and cyclopeeze that sustain him that is fine fine quality feeds for sure
 
Last edited:
Thank you sir!
Sometimes overthinking can be a curse though.
I'm jealous of oblivious people, I guess they're more content.
 
I would consider any form of complete testing along these lines, post rinse, as the best contributions to the thread so far. A couple points about using sand vs sponge filtration...the flow through of the sponge filter is different that the passing topically over sand piled up. To flow through the rinsed sand exposes the test ammonia to more surface area, so a sponge filter test remarks a little better on the collective Impacts vs just the surface area in contact with the test water after the rinse.

any type of flow-through setup such as pumping inputs down into an undergravel filter tube sure would count that's awesome lol. RUGF for ammonia verification testing.


We can get a larger scope picture of impacts by using flow through testing, where the totality of the filtration surface area claim is measured by 24 hour digestion ability. If your initial sand test can digest 1 ppm ammonia in 24 hours Id still claim the test to be valid if the rinsing flatly made it not able to repeat the test. For case closing id still like to see flow through testing, it really takes a LOT of work to sterilize a full sponge filter, or a complete sandbed. Either way no matter which angle is tested it will be some of the first verification measures we've had, its great stuff!
 
Summary of recent challenges as we rinse and change beds in different forums using this guide, so that readers prepping have updated details:


-having any form of clouding upon reassembly is a problem. We should be able to reach into your tank and grab sand, and drop it, and it looks like my sand from page one.
-not having saltwater prepared for generous post assembly work is an issue. Unrinsed new sand you may use clouds always, then we can’t tell in your new setup if dirty live rocks are leaking bad things into the water. the risk is taking no action due to thinking it’s live sand silt, but needing extra water charges perhaps if live rocks were under rinsed.

--You know if your fish want to go back into saltwater that has been mixed overnite and aerated vs saltwater made in emergency reaction five mins ago... Have water ready/ Rubbermaid trash cans or the equivalent for saltwater prep.


Rasping of invaded algae as part of the restoration using a knife is different than metal or plastic brush scrubbing of algae covered live rocks. We use rasping here for a reason when sandbed changes are in response to algae dominance in the tank

Rocks that have pent up algae are not to be brushed clean, that smashes particles deep into the rock.


Rasping is targeted, and the cuts scrape up and out and down the sink, opposite physicality. Don’t customize if this is your first run.

don’t dunk rocks in peroxide mixes. We use droppers of 3% and target only the rasped areas, already worked free of algae and rinsed off. By making a blended paste of algae and bubbling peroxide on the rock surface, the paste undoes a key step in re establishing porosity in live rocks, better to follow the plan.

spoke above about how total algae blanketed live rocks retains waste in ways healthy open pore live rocks do not... and after cleaning intially these neglected rocks need immediate follow up post op care, be ready for water change work

pre modeling actions exist to use just a test rock for algae clearing and growback assessment -before- attempting a whole tank restore. You can check how well rasping works on one test rock, for a week, before upscaling

*Don't run full lighting after the change, ramp up to normal intensity over 48 hrs. This is for bleaching protection.

Handling those issues above addresses all the sandbed access challenges for the first part of 2018
 
Last edited:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cyano-or-maybe-not.387215/#post-4783838




I used BC's information here in relay to another poster with a legit dinos challenge, this aspect of pulling the sandbed for battle is really appealing...no where to hide, no where to feed. putting back the sand is optional thereafter. BCarls tank is presenting my toughest challenge, it's no slam dunk.

The strain of his invader is so virile it needs to be siphoned off and kept in a dedicated tank, and fed, so it can inoculate other systems for environmental testing. Ship a sample to every chemist baddie who can state every metabolic pathway a moneran will ever see; have them infect a tank with this via pics and then theory type that tank right back into sustained compliance.

Ironically, we don't want to kill BCs invader totally, just in his tank. It's the aquarium invader equivalent of MRSA bac.
 
Last edited:
A brave first rip clean, stop a bac bloom dead in its tracks in a nano reef. Impressive. This is pre update. The tank will either look great in five days or it won't, time will tell and thanks for participating Lorekeeper

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-bloom.413320/#post-4868860


The specific biology on this eutrophication arrest:

Initial loss of anemone and in-tank degradation commands oxygen level use well above steady state, and it fuels opportunistic reducing organisms to feed on the organic matter which in turn pumps out metabolic waste fueling one or more bloomed organisms...the tank is bare bottom and relies heavily on live rock to keep fish ammonia, and feed ammonia, under control. Blanketing organisms reduce live rock surface area, and begin dieoff of its microfauna, though actual base filtration bacteria will never be affected by any sort of death or invasion in the tank...they'll actually bloom in numbers using the wastes of reducing bacteria in proximity as feed.

Since the keeper was willing to both export degrading mass and its metabolite-laden bioloaded water immediately, the live rock microfauna base is preserved and more importantly porosity is restored, we can see coralline heavy rock, ideal to plant corals

We used skip cycle biology to -access- the tank and not lose any filtration bacteria of significance.


Within one hour a weeks long succession of events was simply taken, without hesitation. Any follow up water changes to guide out regrowth, should one off run not cure, are now over cloudless substrata and any water changes will be aerating, refreshing events and not a storm cloud of detritus+organic mass+hangers on


Oxygenation was restored here, and metabolite loading reduced to safe levels without hesitation, not by something we dosed, but by something we removed--->key beneficial human trait for arresting a eutrophic reef aquarium.

Rip cleaning can make any nano reef have a biologically limitless, zero invasion lifespan says this example and the next twenty coming pages.



some aquariums don't respond to one offs. We are having to work hard on BCarl77 reef as the rocks are expressing some re growth of cyano, so continual hand guiding on a cloudless base at least makes the work much less than the initial invasion sequence. The invasion moved away from the sandbed after it was cleaned, now we are working on rock guiding. The fact Lorekeeper mainly had organic waste to remove vs an actual invader really helps their prognosis on the tank in my opinion and BCarl's invader is showing response to lights out testing anyway...looks like we are weakening it, such a mean strain he's got.



Another excellent documentation for a big skip cycle tank move: Paul B’s oldest reef in the home kept/moved successfully. Paul analyses pent up detritus here, but make the distinction this isn't Berlin method sandbed detritus which is poison basically in oligotrophic systems... He's featuring -highly aerated and turned over- detritus concentrate from up under a REVERSE undergravel filter, this is completely different from every tank's detritus in this thread which can kill a moved reef if not factored correctly.

Highly oxidized detritus is much less potent because aerobic digesting bacteria have already had full run at its nutrient stores. The oxygen zonation and variation within Berlin/non aerated sandbeds cause proteins in detritus to break down much slower and with metabolic variations including the sulfides etc. You don't get that phase of accumulation/risk release of death gasses when proteins are aerobically/quickly broken down like RUGF does.

He used an ordered set of steps to move the system and he works with detritus that we export in a neat way, it's great to feature his style of reefing where detritus is of no concern and actually food in his system.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/moving-47-year-old-reef-60-miles-omg.407827/
 
Last edited:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/instant-ocean-and-diatoms.421423/

This thread is good to link to the sand rinse thread for compare and contrast between benthic invader sustain time and non rinse controls. There are actually several threads online that link sustained invasions to brand of sand, brand of mix water etc. and as the pages build we can track trends in biology
 
Last edited:

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top