Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

[Dom]

Why do we feel it necessary to rush through a cycle (fish or fishless) knowing we are starting what should be the enjoyment of a long term hobby? We should be reiterating the need for patience not rapidity.

BINGO!

The industry tries to accelerate things in a hobby where patience is one of the keys to success.

 

[brandon429]

is it agreeable that if we just pre verify with ammonia oxidation prior, then its ok for them to proceed even though they're violating nine laws of cryptocarion vectoring

Im wanting a change away from: you are harming fish. we need to manage by truth...a fitting replacement seems to be: "yes bottle bac routinely works to speed things up; to verify its active vs dead you need to verify ammonia oxidation using a reliable test kit and approach"

we cant tell them to look for zero ammonia on api, that takes a full 30 days if lucky, and they're paying sixty bucks for speed cycling bac that works

we should blame the bottle bac sales industry, not the new reefers, they're doing whats allowed on the reviews for the product.

 

[User1]

we should blame the bottle bac sales industry, not the new reefers, they're doing whats allowed on the reviews for the product.

I really don't understand this thread. There isn't any reason blame or challenge the companies that make bacteria in a bottle for a fishless cycle. As one of your earlier posts linked a hobbyist test with Fritz Turbo, Dr. Tims, and maybe others, I forget, that showed them working. Also I'm sure you are aware that these products are used on a much larger scale with public aquaria. Not just home use.

I've personally never used a fish to cycle a reef tank. I've followed Martin Moe's guide years ago that used a piece of shrimp and more recently Dr. Tim's product. In both cases it was a process and cadence of time with checks in place to let me know where in the process I was at.

Why there is a "open challenge" is beyond me. Cycling a tank with a fish is bad practice and no longer necessary when products or processes are available to perform the same task without them.

 

[brandon429]

I wanted to remark on the fact that isnt happening above, the ideal, so when we try to advise a change, dont use false info

its true that we've shown here luckily, since nobody's used dead bottle bac, none of the fish have been harmed by fish-in cycling nor did lethal levels of nh3 occur, as best we can measure.

its a reflection on the direction the hobby is heading vs refusing to look into things.

The directions on the bottles say add fish, not add dead shrimp

 

[NashobaTek]

I didn't have to wait 30 days for the API to show 0 ammonia, it was 0 in 2 1/2 weeks. I kept dosing ammonia until I was close to adding fish though.

 

[brandon429]

The key there is no bottle bac takes two weeks to work. Per Dr Reefs thread

That's classic api delay, but a prudent safe start too. The only time that would matter here is if someone is trying to get a reef ready by a certain date

 

[User1]

The directions on the bottles say add fish, not add dead shrimp

You are making me fall into a trap here. Below are the one and only video sessions on how to set up a fishless cycle. I will be the first to admit that this is outside my wheelhouse but the long and short of it is the hobbyist doses ammonia in place of the fish. How this relates to other manufactures I know not.

Regarding the shrimp comment. I may not have been clear. My apologies. I was referencing another way to cycle a tank without fish by using food. My first tank in this use case I did not use any bacteria in a bottle. Only the shrimp with broke down over time and did all the Mother Nature and magical biology stuff that I don't understand. My recent upgrade I used Dr. Tim's One and Only, bacteria in a bottle. The only thing both have in common was no fish. One used food the other I dosed ammonia.

In any case it could be that bacteria in a bottle has multiple instructions based on product and use case as we can see below.

One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria

Eliminate New Tank Syndrom when setting up a new tank or after cleaning water & filters. Check out One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria solutions today!

store.drtimsaquatics.com

 

[Aqua Man]

We could ask aquaman to translate it for us, not sure if he’s on R2R yet

Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank!

 

[brandon429]

MACNA tanks are good, they sell us good stuff. They were instant cycles, the fastest one could attain.

its nice if we have access to the same magic they do, vs we follow different set of rules, where reefers can’t meet particular deadlines

We might need to rush:
a tank transfer

hospital tank, emergency container tank


an upgrade


a move to a new home


a deep cleaning to beat cyano, or old tank syndrome



it’s not that we are rushing, it’s that we want to be exacting. Waiting weeks and weeks after bottle bac designed for 3 day cycling is very counterproductive, it teaches new reefers false info about what bacteria do, that they’re unpredictable and this holds up their independence from making unneeded purchases and it prevents them from designing efficient systems.


lots of things are being done fast in reefing, we better hop on board.

im up to four work threads of instant tank start analysis, where’s my partner work?
safe zoners lol


making comments and predictions about what bacteria do in other people’s tank threads, before it occurs, then tracking outcomes is a great test of true science vs bad, rushed, or false science. all else lacks accountability, it’s a safe zone

i don’t recall the last time a reef friend/ally accompanied me by making a work thread ump call we could track, and linked it here. that’s unfortunate. We had good science folks in this thread, I figured some would get muddy/hands on/ put a call on the line

 

[brandon429]

#5

Cycle Complete? Ready for fish? Microbacter XLM

I'm using Microbacter start XLM and Quikcycl(ammonia), following the cycling instructions provided by Brightwell. Also using API test kit. Between days 6-8 it seemed like nitrite was being capped out on the tests, so I was looking for what might be the cause. After coming across this video by Dr....

www.nano-reef.com

these are incorrect statements he’s cycled now, can reef.
nitrite does not factor, as written there. Yes yes I’ve seen the myriad youtube vids saying nitrite matters, it doesn’t and I’ll keep showing it here in our added work threads. We will never ask for nor factor nitrite readings for these marine systems.

pull up on google a common cycling chart

how many days does it show till ammonia is complying


how many days is on his ammonia down trend chart

how many days does the bottle bac brand say it takes (10)

on -any- cycling chart you just saw, ammonia complied before nitrite and ammonia never went back up after it went down and ammonia never held at any level in the tenths ppm.

he’s cycled and can begin right now. He should change all the algae fuel water from cycling and begin, add fish or corals based on disease protocols. I won’t post at nano-reef.com but I like to link to them, SeaBass is a great reefer. someone send Innominandum this post, see if he agrees to begin.

cycling in 2020 is not about waiting arbitrary dates, it’s about starting when you can start and making 100% of deadlines you want to make, with total certainty.

#6
Terralncongnito below is doing great, wow. Spot on. The rest are wrong, we don’t dose raw ammonia to a tank with bioload to verify cycle. The bioload has been alive seventeen days because the tank is cycled. Rule of benthic growth order of ops clue: ANY time a system has algae or diatoms growing it’s cycled, those are secondary and tertiary growths long after filter bac bioslicks. The tank is as able to carry bioload now as it would be waiting another five years (per cycle charts, at day ten ammonia is controlled forever per the time axis.) The crevices are full of bacteria. Certainly don’t buy bottle bac, that’s giving away cash redundantly.
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/414322-first-saltwater-tank-evo-135/


see how no cycle fails to comply? Not ever, not once? We name the date, you can seneye measure it and it’ll look fine, or take it to MACNA and back, meet every deadline. I up the commitment to fifteen work threads. Looking for new ones here at rtr, we specifically want to watch when someone adds bioload after the safe prep and verification, then we track the outcome. Accountability is when their added life lives or dies after we predict when it will live, everyone sees the outcome live time.

 

[brandon429]

#7

Pico Jar help. Be nice.

Ok. So I broke the rules and now I need to figure out a path to fix it. Story: I decided to try to the reef in a jar with just some simple corals. I used live sand, pacific ocean water, a small heater, an airstone for flow and a Lominie LED Aquarium Light, Saltwater Freshwater Fish Tank Light...

www.reef2reef.com

done. From here.

pre bioload, we will rip clean it and he’ll add more.

work thread answers: that’s too small for fish, but the system can tolerate any manner of cuc bioload and corals, right now after cleanup. we pack in a thousand dollars of frags into jars like that and run them ten years. Waiting longer or adding bottle bac not required, it’s cycled by association from his inoculants sourced from the ocean and lfs. He can reef right now.

 

[Biglew11]

that at any time in reefing, someone’s tank hit .2 nh3 and held it longer than two hours. False, didn’t occur, api says it occurred a million times. Seneye, zero.

Our hobby grade test kits measure total ammonia, not free ammonia. Here is a calculator to calculate free ammonia from total ammonia as measured from "api" https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php when free ammonia is zero then you should be safe to add fish. Seney not needed, although more accurate. Still beating the dead horse here. You can not scientifically prove a negative. I've never seen a million dollars, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[brandon429]

I’m pretty far off into work thread action though by now, care to join?


me repeat asking for others to step up live time, make cycle calls for deadlines people want to meet legitimately in their threads and *link it* feels like beating a cow or other alternate ungulate heh

 

[sas226]

The state-of-the-art regarding cycling has progressed significantly. Many professionals have posted YouTube videos (BRS, ReefBuilders, etc.) demonstrating bacteria in a bottle to virtually immediately cycle a tank. The popular (albeit relatively expensive products) include Fritz TurboStart 900, Microbacter XLM, Dr, Tim's One and Only, etc. My current build is a 130 gallon DT. Day one after adding water I added Fritz TurboStart 900. Next day, fish (2 clowns, 1 wrasse). Why? Because the TurboStart populated the tank with nitrifying bacteria and they needed waste to eat or they will die. There was NEVER any measurable ammonia or nitrites. The science is straight forward and the products have been developed over the years to be effective and safe. Surely, you may continue to cycle other ways, but don't judge people beause they follow a different path.

Nitrifying bacteria can live for quite a long period of time without dying, like months if memory serves. Not agreeing or disagreeing with you.

Here you go:

Nitrifying bacteria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[brandon429]

If we search web forums years and years rare threads stand out where people cured rocks for years/months in dark, circulation only vats and the seasons altered the temperature etc


they weren’t feeding, bc they were trying to purge phosphates and accumulations as the primary goal. Or maybe they were just awaiting a restart that was mass delayed and things sat in the garage.

some have tested the rocks just to see if they self fed, and stayed active. I caught some of these no feed test rabbits :

Nano Build - Might start a Nano... 15gal Column (Need advice)

Hello I have a 110gal mixed reef that's doing pretty good. It's 5 years old and i'm happy with it. I have a LARGE maroon clown that decided to knock down large rocks so i'm rescaping the right side of that tank. I have a snowflake clown that has lived in the sump for the past year because the...

www.reef2reef.com

three years fallow, passes oxidation testing. When he took that offline, all the detritus and waste in the rocks and sand were food backpacks for bacteria. He could have gone twenty years, still would pass.

 

[sas226]

Seriously......

BRS has actually shown that dry cycled tanks using bottled bacteria are far less stable than new tanks establushed using live rock.

I don't get it. Reefers are too dumb to buy some LR, but will buy bottled bacteria. I also find it more than hypocritical we worry about low ammonia toxicity when we buy fish caught on a reef that are stunned with cyanide.

I wouldn't classify them as dumb. I started with dry rock because I just don't want to pay the extortionist level fees associated with it, nor do I want the risk of dealing with pests. I'll gladly wait the time I need to do get where I need to. No point in rushing. At least in my case that's the situation.

 

[sas226]

I cycled my tanks in the 80's with damsels and I never lost a fish that I recall.
That's how it was done back then. Was there any proof they suffered because of it?
No.

There's a lot of things in the past that should stay there. That's the benefit of time, things progress and advancements are made that make techniques that have been used in the past rendered no longer needed. Just because you could do something doesn't mean you should. Especially if alternatives that are better exist.

 

[sas226]

Truly my intent wasnt to bait new reefers into fish-in cycling. They’re already doing it in droves, we see across all web forums



so now we can look back and analyze and learn what bacteria do, they’re going to be doing fish-in cycles anyway so let’s study it.


we as guides try and shoot down fish-in cycling, having literally no means to do so lol. We don’t have the ammonia kits as a hobby to make a single, reliable remark about what anyone’s ammonia is doing in reefing and for sure this includes comments about fish in cycling. We typically use cheap guess test kits to make statements on what ammonia does, and those readouts don’t match clear visual cues in the tank where true free ammonia is a wrecking ball

our total reefing paradigm on what bacteria do is false, ouch.
im calling out how we as reefers simply transmit all kinds of false info around, while all along Macna conventions are 3.0 light years ahead.
we can seize their techniques, and get sold less redundant stuff if we pay attention to patterns from web posts.

A few bacteria falsehoods promulgated in forums:


-that cycled bacteria will starve if not fed. (thank you DJ City for testing your live rocks at 36 mos in an unfed garage bucket, you shattered that notion and I link your thread often)

-that bacteria have to ramp up on rocks, to make up for removed sand, or coming back after fish fallow removal, to avoid a crash. False, shot down we do 35 pages of sand removal for inspection on page 3.

- that at any time in reefing, someone’s tank hit .2 nh3 and held it longer than two hours. False, didn’t occur, api says it occurred a million times. Seneye, zero.

-that fish in cycles burn or harm fish, to be determined

-that nitrite factors in reef cycles, and can set back ammonia control, no it doesn’t. I’m aware of the YouTube videos saying it matters, it gives me ads to buy bottle bac when I watch it.

- that moving live rocks among tanks requires a new cycle. those are skip cycle reefs, and no they don’t have die off at .25 levels.

- that reef water has no nitrifiers in it, also from the same youtube video about nitrite. Reef water has millions of cycling bac suspended, here's yet another work thread proving it. This is a fully cycled reef + calibrated ammonia test at the end, cycled solely in ~20 days solely by plumbing to an existing reef adding NO extra feed, or bottle bac. Reef water having no filter bac, falsehood. This reef cycled when a cycling chart said it would cycle, no bottle bac added.* the bacteria grew even though no extra feed was added* which proves natural sourcing of sustenance vs requiring our help

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

our entire position on what filter bac do is geared to make us buyers, not the sellers.

Morals of fish-in cycles aside, this is good info for people. I've read a lot of these in various places but never in a concentrated place. Probably need something like this as a "Mythbusted" type of thing. Would do wonders.
Also, I've left rock cycling in a brute in a basement for 3 months as I was waiting for equipment for a different built. I dropped in some pellets when i set it up (the brute). When I setup the tank itself I had no issues moving the rock to the tank and adding fish, never had an ammonia issue. Anecdotal but that's my experience. I wouldn't trust API test kits watching over a cabbage patch doll. In my experience they are about as accurate as a blunderbuss at 100 yards. There's a pretty good reefbuilders video where he uses some brightwell and monitors the ammonia over 7 days that I thought was REALLY good. I think it was measuring a different ammonia than test kits as well. My brain is a little scrambled right now so I could be off.

Found the video: It's free ammonia

 

[fuelman]

i have always done a fish-less cycle. on my reef tanks i used dr tim's & dosing ammonium chloride. i am open to new products changing old methods. i view everything objectively with a open mind, i consider all evidence & then come to a conclusion. but if fish displaying inflamed gills gasping at the surface suffering from irreparable damage is the measure of "harm" then i think some folks might want to rethink what harm is. so lets flip the script. lets show evidence that fish in cycle with bottle bac results in 0% harm to fish, not extreme might result in death harm that we can see with the naked eye, but 0% harm. absent evidence of this from a source who's validity is above reproach, the claim that fish in cycle not harming fish is just a hypothesis. i'm open to that being a possibility, but it's gonna take real prof not anecdotal observations.

 

[brandon429]

#8

100 gallon Rubbermaid curing tub Parameters

I I am curing around 200 pounds of rock and It’s been curing for 48 days. One powerhead, two pumps for circulation, and two heaters. Sixty pounds came from a well established 20 year old tank. Every four days I add the dirty filer floss from my Bio Cube 32 to feed the bacteria. I added two...

www.reef2reef.com

that’s the most over cycled, finished 38 days ago, misreporting param cycle I’ve seen in a decade. It’s so done, that if he buys more bottle bac I’ll need professional help. Rob B posted correctly there regarding redundancy, and projected completion time by association with sixty pounds of live rock as a bac source

1. when can those rocks support life? about 38 days ago. It’s been curing 48 days. Excessive bottle bac use made him ready fast. All else wait was due to false ammonia read.

2. will fish be burned: no to the ninth power.

3. why do we say it’s cycled though he reports .5 ammonia?
Does seneye take readings in the tenths ppm in anyone’s reef? Let’s extend the paid bounty through today

when an aquarist writes down a number, we trained buyers accept it without question and advise to wait longer, and, buy more bottled bac.

but the notation is wrong, it is off by two decimal points after this long

his ammonia is .005 on seneye, or .o5 on Red Sea nh3 conversion charts mentioned here prior pages


find a cycle chart not created on photoshop that allows for ammonia noncontrol on day 48 after about six different forms of bacterial inoculation. He can add fish loading right now, and they live just fine.