Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.
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Mkvc
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Got a little behind schedule, but here's an update:
Setup:
150g tank with dry rock
Aug 7
Got a little carried away during the ARC live sale and decided my new corals would have a better chance under my new Radions than in the old Biocube. So when they arrived last week, I dumped a bottle of bacteria in my un-cycled tank and stuck them in. I've been spot feeding them daily. After 48 hours since they were happy (lots of growth already!) I moved on to fish.
Aug 9
Added my ocellaris clownfish pair.
As of today, Aug 17, they're doing fine. There was also a brittle star hitchhiker on my acro and he's still showing up when I feed. Somewhere between 0 and 0.25ppm ammonia with my test kit (I know those suck). My bioload/volume ratio isn't very high yet so I'll take it slow. Planning to add my watchman goby next week.
Given the amount of variables I'm not sure how helpful my experience will be... just figured I'd add a datapoint.
Setup:
150g tank with dry rock
Aug 7
Got a little carried away during the ARC live sale and decided my new corals would have a better chance under my new Radions than in the old Biocube. So when they arrived last week, I dumped a bottle of bacteria in my un-cycled tank and stuck them in. I've been spot feeding them daily. After 48 hours since they were happy (lots of growth already!) I moved on to fish.
Aug 9
Added my ocellaris clownfish pair.
As of today, Aug 17, they're doing fine. There was also a brittle star hitchhiker on my acro and he's still showing up when I feed. Somewhere between 0 and 0.25ppm ammonia with my test kit (I know those suck). My bioload/volume ratio isn't very high yet so I'll take it slow. Planning to add my watchman goby next week.
Given the amount of variables I'm not sure how helpful my experience will be... just figured I'd add a datapoint.
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yes that all lines up with working just fine, attachment times for most bottle bac have been shown to occur within 5 days or so, most strains, meaning its legit cycled in 5 days~ but working as suspension cycling currently until then. We need more seneye data matched to fish-in cycling to substantiate patterns on whether or not harm is occurring, the fish never show it.
this leads me to think controlling initial ammonia is easy, not hard—from raw consistency reported thread to thread, happy fish, the initial dilution + bottle bac works, safely, tbd.
this leads me to think controlling initial ammonia is easy, not hard—from raw consistency reported thread to thread, happy fish, the initial dilution + bottle bac works, safely, tbd.
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Failed fish in cycle?
www.reef2reef.com
Why did my fish die?!
Ok, I killed my first two clownfish. But I can’t figure out why. I built a tank from scratch. It has a 120 gallon display with a 55 gallon sump. I used RODI water to make my salt water. It has sand and dry live rock. And it’s all been set up and running for about two weeks. I tested the water...
www.reef2reef.com
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I really dont know what could kill them so fast. we freshwater dip clowns sometimes to kill off disease via osmotic shock right>?
30 mins lethality among hundreds of posts with none is an outlier in anyone's stat book.
30 mins lethality among hundreds of posts with none is an outlier in anyone's stat book.
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Fish in cycle, bottle bac, and seneye
www.reef2reef.com
#264 post was wrong sealing silicone, not nh3 see it’s follow up in link
Nitrite, should I be worried?
Ammonia: 0.037, Seneye Nitrite: 0.1 looking from top, 0.025 looking through side, Salifert. Nitrate: 5 looking from top, 5 looking through side, Salifert. Tank has been running for 3 weeks with 2 small fish, started it with ATM Colony. No skimmer, no filter.
www.reef2reef.com
#264 post was wrong sealing silicone, not nh3 see it’s follow up in link
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Team how's the groupthink going
Can we agree quick basic ammonia control isn't unfathomable
Since last post, number of fish in cycles logged here and every forum: 1000
Number of fish showing symptoms? Show me. If there is a pattern emerging we need to see it.
fish in cycle growing despite our anger
See the new tank form for patterns
Why is the deluge not listening? They go where the market meets a need.
We got caught claiming things about fish in cycles that weren't true, someone invented quick ammonia control to meet a demand, so now disease kills nearly all those quick start fish but we put energy into solely inability to control ammonia despite twenty brands of bac able to do so
We need some energy on the disease prevention front
Can we agree quick basic ammonia control isn't unfathomable
Since last post, number of fish in cycles logged here and every forum: 1000
Number of fish showing symptoms? Show me. If there is a pattern emerging we need to see it.
fish in cycle growing despite our anger
See the new tank form for patterns
Why is the deluge not listening? They go where the market meets a need.
We got caught claiming things about fish in cycles that weren't true, someone invented quick ammonia control to meet a demand, so now disease kills nearly all those quick start fish but we put energy into solely inability to control ammonia despite twenty brands of bac able to do so
We need some energy on the disease prevention front
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MnFish1
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There should be broad agreement - To me part of the problem is that people shouldn’t be calling the method of using bacteria and fish a cycle with a fish - that’s a different thing. A cycle using fish (the old way) was buy a cheap fish and plop or in a tank with a filter, feed it, and after the cycle toss it. They are two different things. Right? The ‘new’ way certainly works and is safe
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2021 fish-in cycling summary:
nobody has ever posted a verified elevated ammonia reading tied to fish loss or even skittishness or any form of visual discomfort from fish-in cycles, being in the process of dying from nh3 backup always causes pain and discomfort and crazy behavior
Nobody proved in 2020 that fish-in cycling harms fish.
the challenge has not been beaten by the common thought that fish - in cycling harms fish via nh3 noncontrol
disease eight months later sure does.
I saw a post today where a massive over dose of bottle bac brands caused a fish loss, but the reported ammonia was zero and the posters felt it was 02 robbing that caused the loss, bac taking up all the free oxy
one loss among twenty thousand successful fish-in cycles with no symptoms of being burned still would be an acceptable outlier percent in anyone's data plot for hypothesis verification. its possible the bottle bac was dead as well, that will happen from time to time so that's why pre-verifying ammonia movement is the wise move, before the first fish. that or checking for some nitrate a couple days after the setup and a small spritz of test ammonia.
nobody has ever posted a verified elevated ammonia reading tied to fish loss or even skittishness or any form of visual discomfort from fish-in cycles, being in the process of dying from nh3 backup always causes pain and discomfort and crazy behavior
Nobody proved in 2020 that fish-in cycling harms fish.
the challenge has not been beaten by the common thought that fish - in cycling harms fish via nh3 noncontrol
disease eight months later sure does.
I saw a post today where a massive over dose of bottle bac brands caused a fish loss, but the reported ammonia was zero and the posters felt it was 02 robbing that caused the loss, bac taking up all the free oxy
one loss among twenty thousand successful fish-in cycles with no symptoms of being burned still would be an acceptable outlier percent in anyone's data plot for hypothesis verification. its possible the bottle bac was dead as well, that will happen from time to time so that's why pre-verifying ammonia movement is the wise move, before the first fish. that or checking for some nitrate a couple days after the setup and a small spritz of test ammonia.
MnFish1
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You know as well as everyone else - the objection is the 'possibility' that a living being could be harmed - its the same objection that comes up every time its discussed. It doesn't matter that it never happens - the thing is it 'could' happen - so its "barbaric". If you think you can get beyond that argument - I think you're probably incorrect. (BTW - I completely agree with you - with both freshwater and marine - with thousands of dollars worth of discus, after moving one tank to another - and common sense looking at @Dr. Reef 's experiments - of course its possible to put in bacteria - and fish on day 1. I agree with you there is no debate that its possible - and successful - and follows the instructions on several products already available.
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Is it fair to say us posting not to do it was dwarfed by bottle bac directions and brs methods allowing for fish- in cycles
Is brs harming fish
There's no chance taken when ammonia can show down movement, then adding a fish. Proves bac was alive
Live bac plus dilution equals brs does it wide scale by teaching videos.
Is brs harming fish
There's no chance taken when ammonia can show down movement, then adding a fish. Proves bac was alive
Live bac plus dilution equals brs does it wide scale by teaching videos.
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It took fourteen pages
don’t tell me work threads can’t change reefing paradigm...
www.reef2reef.com
we have ten million international online reef assessors who are stating a falsehood every day, per that seneye thread fish in cycling does not harm fish. bottle bac aren’t slow to emerge, they emerge as rock and roll even from a closed cold not fed bottle all the skeptics are wrong.
MN I had wanted to update a test so through no skeptics could disagree, I believe that thread meets the thresh.
bring on the crypto baby
don’t tell me work threads can’t change reefing paradigm...
Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me
@Dan_P can you let us know if you feel that prior copper treated substrates would affect nitrification testing. I wouldn't think the old rocks would, was mainly concerned about the actively-dosed system altering the reading. lots of people reef with prior copper rocks and can't keep snails, but...
www.reef2reef.com
we have ten million international online reef assessors who are stating a falsehood every day, per that seneye thread fish in cycling does not harm fish. bottle bac aren’t slow to emerge, they emerge as rock and roll even from a closed cold not fed bottle all the skeptics are wrong.
MN I had wanted to update a test so through no skeptics could disagree, I believe that thread meets the thresh.
bring on the crypto baby
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High ammonia, nitrates AND nitrites
Hello, I recently started a new 20 gallon aquarium and I am almost 2 weeks into cycling. I am cycling with fish (2 clownfish and 1 cleaner shrimp). today I tested my water and my resutls were as follows: PH: 8.0 ammonia: 0.25 ppm nitrites: 0.50 ppm nitrates: 20 ppm I was considering doing and 20%...
www.nano-reef.com
Read this whole example thread from friends at nano-reef.com
Is the shrimp harmed
Is the fish harmed
What did the alert badge say regarding ammonia toxicity
How much fish disease focus did that thread get
Fear based, old cycling science that no seneye owner would ever agree with still runs our hobby.
Our hobby still has no means to comprehend that concentrated bottle bac sold to us in water, then added to water in our tanks, works as designed
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Someone with a seneye, get some bottle bac and replicate the setup above. Put a light ammonia dose in the tank, watch it get oxidized within an hour, easy to prove fish- in cycles aren't harming fish.
All cycle fear is a realm for non digital, nh4 test readings. No owner of a calibrated seneye ever doubts their basic ammonia control. I'm glad a few seneye owners are in this thread to spot check claims.
All cycle fear is a realm for non digital, nh4 test readings. No owner of a calibrated seneye ever doubts their basic ammonia control. I'm glad a few seneye owners are in this thread to spot check claims.
monicalooze
Active Member
Anecdotes in favor of a fish-in cycle with a bottle of bacteria...
At the risk of getting absolutely skewered...I have cycled two tanks with two clowns and a tail spot blenny (all at once) and a bottle of Dr. Tim's. The ammonia level barely shifted from yellow to slightly greenish yellow on a Red Sea test kit...and it hit zero in less than 48 hrs. I couldn't tell you what the level actually was because the color barely changed. It could have been within the range of error on the test! I kept a close eye on it and I was ready to do a massive water change if anything got out of hand. That would have fixed the problem quickly, and I believe being ready to ameliorate issues if things go awry is all that is necessary to be responsible when cycling a tank with fish...even if the tank is technically cycled when you add the bacteria (more on this in a second).
Before I just threw a fish in the tank, this is the logic I used to come to my conclusion:
1. The INSTRUCTIONS ON THE BOTTLE of Dr. Tim's say that a fish can be added right away, since adding the bacteria to the tank IS actually cycling the tank, because cycling the tank is really about creating your bacterial population. This just does it more quickly.
And I can only assume the tiny ammonia spike is from the nitrifying bacteria adjusting to keep up with the bioload. Why would Tim tell us to throw a fish into a tank with his product knowing it could kill the fish? That wouldn't be great for business now would it...
2. When I set up my first QT tank as a complete newbie, I was flummoxed about how to quickly "cycle" the tank if I didn't have any biomedia from another tank. And then I asked myself the question: why would a little sponge full of biomedia in a HOB filter "cycle" the tank any better than a bottle of bacteria soaking the same sponge? I also knew that if I spent time cycling the QT tank with bottled ammonium chloride, I would end up with high nitrates AND there wouldn't really be much surface area for the bacteria to colonize for the size of the tank, based on the recommendations for ~1lb of live rock per gallon of water. I didn't want to have to do a huge water change before I added the fish, and I knew high nitrates plus copper and other meds would stress the fish more than the meds alone. Again...I had no problems and there was pretty much zero ammonia spike with three fish in a 10g tank. All three of them sailed through QT.
3. I believe I double checked this with @brandon429 to make sure I wasn't being barbaric. This was about two years ago.
Side note:
I would argue that using ammonium chloride doesn't set you up for long term success because it takes longer to cycle the tank and the higher ammonia concentrations from dosing vs. what's produced by a few small fish cause sky-high nitrate levels. Not great for a sterile tank started with dry rock, no? Seems like a recipe for an algae outbreak to me...
More evidence: cycling a tank with maricultured premium live rock...
In a completely different scenario, with a brand new tank, I cycled the tank with KP Aquatics premium rock.
I won't pretend this situation wasn't stressful, and it required a lot of large water changes over a week, because in this case, the initial die off caused the ammonia to rise to much higher concentrations than the bottle of bacteria and the fish (not off the charts, but still significant).
The reason this was stressful was because I had so much LIFE on the rocks. Crabs, brittle stars, fan worms, snapping shrimp, copepods and amphipods...the list goes on. Obviously I wanted to preserve as much life as possible (this is the point of buying live rock! And I'm not a monster), so I monitored very closely and did 30% water changes every two days. I only lost one starfish out of MANY and a single small snapping shrimp out of two. Obviously I can't tell you whether the ammonia or shipping stress killed them, but I think these animals are hardier than we think. The journey alone is harrowing.
The cycle was over in a week, and I have so many different crabs it's actually a problem lol.
That's my opinion (ahem...diatribe) on the subject, and while it's anecdotal, I think we should listen to Dr. Tim, even if he has unfortunately confused the situation by providing fishless cycle instructions and materials.
At the risk of getting absolutely skewered...I have cycled two tanks with two clowns and a tail spot blenny (all at once) and a bottle of Dr. Tim's. The ammonia level barely shifted from yellow to slightly greenish yellow on a Red Sea test kit...and it hit zero in less than 48 hrs. I couldn't tell you what the level actually was because the color barely changed. It could have been within the range of error on the test! I kept a close eye on it and I was ready to do a massive water change if anything got out of hand. That would have fixed the problem quickly, and I believe being ready to ameliorate issues if things go awry is all that is necessary to be responsible when cycling a tank with fish...even if the tank is technically cycled when you add the bacteria (more on this in a second).
Before I just threw a fish in the tank, this is the logic I used to come to my conclusion:
1. The INSTRUCTIONS ON THE BOTTLE of Dr. Tim's say that a fish can be added right away, since adding the bacteria to the tank IS actually cycling the tank, because cycling the tank is really about creating your bacterial population. This just does it more quickly.
And I can only assume the tiny ammonia spike is from the nitrifying bacteria adjusting to keep up with the bioload. Why would Tim tell us to throw a fish into a tank with his product knowing it could kill the fish? That wouldn't be great for business now would it...
2. When I set up my first QT tank as a complete newbie, I was flummoxed about how to quickly "cycle" the tank if I didn't have any biomedia from another tank. And then I asked myself the question: why would a little sponge full of biomedia in a HOB filter "cycle" the tank any better than a bottle of bacteria soaking the same sponge? I also knew that if I spent time cycling the QT tank with bottled ammonium chloride, I would end up with high nitrates AND there wouldn't really be much surface area for the bacteria to colonize for the size of the tank, based on the recommendations for ~1lb of live rock per gallon of water. I didn't want to have to do a huge water change before I added the fish, and I knew high nitrates plus copper and other meds would stress the fish more than the meds alone. Again...I had no problems and there was pretty much zero ammonia spike with three fish in a 10g tank. All three of them sailed through QT.
3. I believe I double checked this with @brandon429 to make sure I wasn't being barbaric. This was about two years ago.
Side note:
I would argue that using ammonium chloride doesn't set you up for long term success because it takes longer to cycle the tank and the higher ammonia concentrations from dosing vs. what's produced by a few small fish cause sky-high nitrate levels. Not great for a sterile tank started with dry rock, no? Seems like a recipe for an algae outbreak to me...
More evidence: cycling a tank with maricultured premium live rock...
In a completely different scenario, with a brand new tank, I cycled the tank with KP Aquatics premium rock.
I won't pretend this situation wasn't stressful, and it required a lot of large water changes over a week, because in this case, the initial die off caused the ammonia to rise to much higher concentrations than the bottle of bacteria and the fish (not off the charts, but still significant).
The reason this was stressful was because I had so much LIFE on the rocks. Crabs, brittle stars, fan worms, snapping shrimp, copepods and amphipods...the list goes on. Obviously I wanted to preserve as much life as possible (this is the point of buying live rock! And I'm not a monster), so I monitored very closely and did 30% water changes every two days. I only lost one starfish out of MANY and a single small snapping shrimp out of two. Obviously I can't tell you whether the ammonia or shipping stress killed them, but I think these animals are hardier than we think. The journey alone is harrowing.
The cycle was over in a week, and I have so many different crabs it's actually a problem lol.
That's my opinion (ahem...diatribe) on the subject, and while it's anecdotal, I think we should listen to Dr. Tim, even if he has unfortunately confused the situation by providing fishless cycle instructions and materials.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Hasn't this ship sailed yet? I agree with you - you can use bottled bacteria to start a tank - with dry rock, live rock or a canister filter.High ammonia, nitrates AND nitrites
Hello, I recently started a new 20 gallon aquarium and I am almost 2 weeks into cycling. I am cycling with fish (2 clownfish and 1 cleaner shrimp). today I tested my water and my resutls were as follows: PH: 8.0 ammonia: 0.25 ppm nitrites: 0.50 ppm nitrates: 20 ppm I was considering doing and 20%...www.nano-reef.com
Read this whole example thread from friends at nano-reef.com
Is the shrimp harmed
Is the fish harmed
What did the alert badge say regarding ammonia toxicity
How much fish disease focus did that thread get
Fear based, old cycling science that no seneye owner would ever agree with still runs our hobby.
Our hobby still has no means to comprehend that concentrated bottle bac sold to us in water, then added to water in our tanks, works as designed
Part of the equation - which people should be aware of:
1. A seneye is not required - a Seachem alert is enough in all likelyhood
2. It depends on surface area and bioload - as to whether the method will be successful
3. Since the topic of the thread you posted was 'high ammonia, nitrite and nitrates' I would assume fish disease got very little discussion.
I completely agree that if there is no visible distress in inverts and fish - there would be little concern for ammonia at that minute. The problem is - the problem can come up the 'next day'.
RichReef
Valuable Member
If you have a large tank maybe 50 gallons plus there is no way that cycling with a fish will harm it. There is simply too much water for 1 small fish to pollute. Don't over feed it.
I always used a fish and I've never lost one. We are talking 10 plus systems.
I always used a fish and I've never lost one. We are talking 10 plus systems.
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