Palytoxin...Zoas? Need advice

[A. grandis]

P. heliodiscs is KNOWN to be one of the most toxic of all palythoa, did you not notice there are Palythoa species in the study where Palytoxin was undetected? same with all Zoanthus species in the study.

Again

Caution = good. Fear mongering = bad

Did you notice that Zoanthus spp. could carry the toxin?

 

[Stoney]

Does anyone find it strange that no one in the aquarium industry has died from palytoxin? *knocks on wood* There's been so many different types of exposure like inhalation, open wounds, through the eyes, and even through intact skin (Julian Sprung IIRC). If they're really being exposed to the world's second deadliest toxin, what are the odds that none of them received a large enough dose? I'm not implying that palytoxin isn't deadly, but perhaps some of these cases are just allergic reactions to something else.

 

[C. Eymann]

Does anyone find it strange that no one in the aquarium industry has died from palytoxin? *knocks on wood* There's been so many different types of exposure like inhalation, open wounds, through the eyes, and even through intact skin (Julian Sprung IIRC). If they're really being exposed to the world's second deadliest toxin, what are the odds that none of them received a large enough dose? I'm not implying that palytoxin isn't deadly, but perhaps some of these cases are just allergic reactions to something else.

I understand user PM grandis wants people to be safe as do I, you should treat every coral with respect, wear gloves and eye protection while fragging and be mindful.

Here is MY take on the fear mongering that's been going on regarding palytoxin in the hobby and on this forum.
–--‐----
One of my other hobbies involves venomous critters with eight legs that are armed with two hypodermic needles, some of these can be very fast and defensive, some can be medically significant, several others can be potentially deadly.

Generally when someone is constantly fear mongering about the dangers of some of these particular species, it's almost a given that their collection consists of ONLY the "hot" or potentially dangerous species.
If you catch my drift... wink...wink.

Generally, they are referred to by many to be the bane of the hobby, and I agree.

If you use common sense when working with palys/zoas, you are not in any danger.

Like I mentioned, your daily commute to work every morning is far more dangerous.

 

[A. grandis]

My common sense is simply to be responsible and use safety equipment /precautions. That will save your life, not positive thoughts.

Julian Sprung is one of the most intelligent, experienced and respected hobbyists I've ever met and even he admitted he was confident prior his case. The mucus is invisible in the water and it will kill you if you ingest a small portion of it by accident. There are so many ways for the toxin to get into your body. We almost lost one of the best experienced divers around just by passing a colony of zoanthids.
Those people weren't showing any signs of fear and could be dead today.
They fear now!

 

[A. grandis]

Does anyone find it strange that no one in the aquarium industry has died from palytoxin? *knocks on wood* There's been so many different types of exposure like inhalation, open wounds, through the eyes, and even through intact skin (Julian Sprung IIRC). If they're really being exposed to the world's second deadliest toxin, what are the odds that none of them received a large enough dose? I'm not implying that palytoxin isn't deadly, but perhaps some of these cases are just allergic reactions to something else.

In the beginning of the hobby we had basically no information about palytoxin and I strongly believe it is very possible that we have lost lives to palytoxin.

We do know some cases of people that almost died.

Palytoxin Nearly Killed my Family and Pets! | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

A traumatic event happened at my house this week. My family and pets became very sick and in the dogs case, near death. A chain of events lead to my house being filled with aerosolized Palytoxin.

reefbuilders.com

Personal experiences with palytoxin poisoning: “Almost killed myself, wife and dogs”

"I wanted to share this story as a warning to novice and even experienced reefers" remarks Mario Tango, after his family's trip to the emergency room.

www.advancedaquarist.com

 

[C. Eymann]

My common sense is simply to be responsible and use safety equipment /precautions. That will save your life, not positive thoughts.

Julian Sprung is one of the most intelligent, experienced and respected hobbyists I've ever met and even he admitted he was confident prior his case. The mucus is invisible in the water and it will kill you if you ingest a small portion of it by accident. There are so many ways for the toxin to get into your body. We almost lost one of the best experienced divers around just by passing a colony of zoanthids.
Those people weren't showing any signs of fear and could be dead today.
They fear now!

Let me ask you this man, what's the main genus of corals you keep in your tank ? I'm taking a big guess you have a ton of Palythoa, right?

You love telling people how crazy dangerous your inhabitants are!, I have seen this with my other hobby some of ppl that keep phoneutria (very dangerous spiders) love to brag about how dangerous they are. Thing is, their critters are armed with hypodermic needles and they move FAST! not even a comparison to the incredibly small risk keeping palythoa entails

If keeping palythoa is incredibly dangerous, why do you keep them? where is that common sense?

I have read posts on here where people, mostly newbies, are shying away from keeping Palys and Zoas because of the terrible fear mongering you are perpetuating!

You are damaging the hobby and the growth of
it!

Yes, people should be made aware, you however, are blowing things way out of proportion!

I cant tell you how many hours I have spent fragging zoas and palys in the cumulative total of 10 years I have worked professionally in the hobby and, recklessly I admit, very little safety precautions no gloves, no eye protection, been pulled away many times from fragging to help a customer then afterwards grabbed a slice of pizza, wiped my face etc etc.

Never one incident!

Again I do urge caution with palythoas but your behavior and fear mongering is not constructive at all.


STOP

 

[A. grandis]

Let me ask you this man, what's the main genus of corals you keep in your tank ? I'm taking a big guess you have a ton of Palythoa, right?

You love telling people how crazy dangerous your inhabitants are!, I have seen this with my other hobby some of ppl that keep phoneutria (very dangerous spiders) love to brag about how dangerous they are. Thing is, their critters are armed with hypodermic needles and they move FAST! not even a comparison to the incredibly small risk keeping palythoa entails

If keeping palythoa is incredibly dangerous, why do you keep them? where is that common sense?

I have read posts on here where people, mostly newbies, are shying away from keeping Palys and Zoas because of the terrible fear mongering you are perpetuating!

You are damaging the hobby and the growth of
it!

Yes, people should be made aware, you however, are blowing things way out of proportion!

I cant tell you how many hours I have spent fragging zoas and palys in the cumulative total of 10 years I have worked professionally in the hobby and, recklessly I admit, very little safety precautions no gloves, no eye protection, been pulled away many times from fragging to help a customer then afterwards grabbed a slice of pizza, wiped my face etc etc.

Never one incident!

Again I do urge caution with palythoas but your behavior and fear mongering is not constructive at all.


STOP

Palythoa spp. aren't corals!
I don't keep any Palythoa spp. in my systems right now. Too risky!
I do not have corals, and I keep only Zoanthus spp. Tons of them!
That doesn't mean they do not carry palytoxin!!!!!
Caution is required with ALL ZOANTHIDS no matter what!
Even after you saw all the serious info I've posted you still play your game.
This is not like a video game!
I hope people understand that this is not about keeping the zoas and about "saving the hobby", but protecting ourselves, our families and pets from palytoxin.
I handle zoanthids for 25+ years and I know what I'm saying here.
Your mentality is young and immature to preach such thing. I'm sorry.
It is so ridiculous to argue about it after so many cases!
Be careful with your spiders too! I wish I could talk to your parents and let them know what you've posted here! Shame on you!

 

[EMeyer]

Folks, if I could inject another perspective - the bleach and drain killer under your sink can you. The pharmaceuticals in your medicine cabinet can kill you. The electrical current running through your house's circuitry can kill you. The gun hanging on your wall can kill you. The car you drive to work every morning can kill you. (Actually, this last one on the list is by *far* the most likely to kill you).

The only way any of those things *will* kill you, is if you misuse them. Human error.

I've read a few news articles about symptoms that were attributed to palytoxin. I have yet to read of a single case where the doctors did any kind of test to confirm the symptoms were caused by palytoxin. Such a case may very well exist. But the burden of proof is on those claiming an effect. The null hypothesis is always no effect. Palytoxin is obviously very very toxic. But where is the evidence that victim X's symptoms were *caused* by palytoxin?

Considering the huge numbers of people that handle zoas and palys every day without any symptoms, isnt it possible we're seeing cases of allergic reactions in the extremely rare cases where someone is hospitalized after working on their tank? Which would put palys in the same category as bees or peanuts.

Furthermore, in every case I've read about, in between the idiot reporter claiming it was caused by Xenia or something, there's always been some details like "the victim was cooking rocks in his oven" or "the victim was scrubbing Paly covered rocks with a toothbrush indoors". Which is right up there with gargling with drain cleaner in terms of good ideas.

I wear gloves when I frag palys, I try to minimize contact with my skin, but I dont treat them as something inherently more dangerous than the bleach under my sink. Which I also make sure to keep out of my eyes and mouth.

Human error is a dangerous thing. I'd worry more about your commute than your coral tank.

 

[Zero1091]

Oh snap, I leave for a few days and this thread blew up. Chillax
The original post was really meant to inquire about Designer/ Signature named zoas that people own and have handled and in their experience didn't undergo any bad side effects.
I thank you guys for posting all the great info. Im sure you all have the best intent with the knowledge you’re sharing.