Poll: How much more would you pay for quarantined fish?

[PDR]

As someone who is currently setting up this kind of business, I’d like to explain the challenges of quarantining en masse vs. as a hobbyist:

As a hobbyist, I would QT 2-3 fish at a time (usually in a 10 gal). The process was pretty straight forward: Treat for ich/velvet using copper or Chloroquine, deworm with prazi and then move the fish to a larger (29 gallon) observation tank to ensure nothing got missed. If I saw white stringy poo (intestinal worms) or a bacterial infection arose, I could deal with it in the 29 gal. Like you, I wasn’t always successful with QT, but I did pretty well. Worst case scenario... some weird Typhoid Mary disease wiped out everything in QT, I would bleach/sterilize everything and start over with a new batch of fish. But the bottom line is my fish in the DT were always protected from the unknown.

However, when you QT 50-60 fish at a time (like I have been doing) you are much more likely to encounter the following:

1. Aggressive gram negative bacterial infections, which spread from fish to fish. I recently lost 60% of a wholesale order to this. The growths started out looking like Lymphocystis, but gram staining later confirmed gram negative bacteria. Even worse, the growths spread over the fishes’ internal organs (via necropsy) which explained why just dosing the water with antibiotics didn’t halt the fish deaths.
2. I have been encountering praziquantel resistant strains of monogeneans (flukes) and turbellarians (black ich). I never saw this before as a hobbyist. When this happens, I have to treat the entire QT with either hyposalinity or formalin in order to 100% eradicate.
3. I currently am using 8-40 breeders and 4-29 gallon aquariums as quarantine tanks. As bacteria spreads & biofilm forms in these QTs, any medications (except copper) I dose become less & less effective due to biodegradation. So periodically I have to completely break down and sterilize each & every QT in order to hit the reset button. (I am currently experimenting with just dosing chlorine in order to accomplish this.) But the cost of reseeding these QTs with nitrifying bacteria is just another expense associated with QTing on a commercial level.
4. All of the medications I use are pharmaceutical grade vs. what some aquarium company sells. It’s a lot more expensive to medicate this way, but I can only trust what I know has been tested to be 99% pure or better.
5. No words can express my disgust with the sorry state of livestock wholesalers and the aquarium industry as a whole right now. It’s very difficult to QT on a commercial level when you have such a bad starting point to work from.

As much as I advocate using medications, I do realize they are inherently bad for the fish. Every med you dose into the water your fish’s liver & kidneys has to filter + there are always side effects. So, I had hoped to only use minimal medications on my fish and rely upon observation to determine if additional treatment was required. This approach worked for me in the beginning, but after my recent bout with gram negative bacteria I have come to realize I need to get a lot more aggressive with medicating + food soaking medications. As a MB recently told me, everything that goes wrong on the outside with these fish also goes wrong on the inside.

So, I will keep soldering on, trying to improve my techniques and get ahead of this learning curve. FWIW; this has never been about making money for me. This is about stopping all this indiscriminate loss of fish life, and putting pressure on the industry as a whole to do the same. Wish me luck.

I really appreciate all you are doing @Humblefish! I can't wait until I am able to purchase my fish from you!

 

[sfin52]

Is it really practible for a lfs to qt all thier live stock.

Double the space for qt, more food, medication, electric, man hours, water should all be considered for quality qt. Some fish would more than double the price.

I dont think it's a good idea for all livestock but more of a service. So maybe buy the fish and than pay for qt service.

 

[JaimeAdams]

First.
I work full time at a saltwater specialty fish store. My perspective on this is probably going to be different than some other folks. So I get a shipment of fish in and I mark them up double or triple depending on what they are. We try to keep our prices inline with live aquaria and such. If you guys look around on the forum you will see many retailers or people heavily involved in the industry talking about how to health of the fish entering the market has gone downhill and how prevalent certain diseases and parasites are. So I get a few boxes of fish and and guess what, some of those fish are going to die. Bottom line there will be lose, hopefully it will be no more than 10%. Now in no way would I try to sell a sick fish and I don't keep low levels of copper in my system or hypo salinity or any of those gimmicks. However it can take awhile for fish to get sick. The local fish store is also not putting fish in large tanks and giving them the perfect environment, they are usually in smaller than ideal tanks and the fish density is usually high and the water quality is usually not SPS growing quality as far as nutrient levels go. Realistically the longer that I hold onto that fish the better the chances of that fish getting sick and not making it. I've had anthias all start dropping after they were here for 3 months doing perfect along with other stories.

We can only see what is going on on the outside of the fish, nothing more. That would be like with us humans and a doctor only treating something that he can see on our skin. There is way more going on than just the 5 or 6 things we hobbyists treat fish for. The most profitable business model for a retail fish store is to get the fish in and out as fast as possible. We do offer a guarantee on our fish, but that fish is going to stand a better chance in someones low nutrient level mature reef tank that is appropriate sized being fed 3 times a day than they are going to be in a retail setting.

All that being said there is no way in hell I would be willing to QT a Tamarin Wrasse for the same "fees" as say a yellow tang if the replacement of the fish was on me. Or a better comparison would be a yellow tang vas a gem tang, They are basically as hardly and the QT really shouldn't be an issue, but I am taking a bigger financial risk of even simply holding that fish for an extra 4-6 weeks. Me having to lose out on $20 to replace a fish is much different than losing out on $400 to replace a fish. The idea of a percentage is what I would base it on with a few exceptions. When we talked about selling pre-QTd fish here at the store that is what we decided that we would go with. Personally I think the 50% - 100% uncharge is about accurate to my opinion. Granted at the same time I'm not QTing a blue damsel unless it is as a personal favor. I would probably charge slightly more for delicate fish to maybe significantly more for difficult fish. Like a mandarine, I would pay a big uncharge for a QTed mandarine. I get Copper Banded Butterflys eating all the time, but I understand peoples thoughts on paying a larger uncharge for those fish, but I would also want that same larger upcharge for expensive fish.

Granted the people responding to this thread are the people who even know about and/or care about Quarantine. I would say that most of my customers wouldn't care. The ones who do care would be willing to pay whatever I would ask and the rest of them would just want to know why the other fish were so expensive and not buy them.

There is a different store in my city that will treat your fish in copper for $5 a day per fish. I am not sure if the fish dining is on you or on them. The reason why they don't sell QTd fish has been mentioned above and that is in regards to people having parasites in their system or adding them into their system on something else and the QTd fish getting the blame.

 

[CMO]

My willingness to pay for pre-quarantined fish would be very high, at least double.

 

[CMO]

As someone who is currently setting up this kind of business, I’d like to explain the challenges of quarantining en masse vs. as a hobbyist:

FWIW; this has never been about making money for me. This is about stopping all this indiscriminate loss of fish life, and putting pressure on the industry as a whole to do the same. Wish me luck.

There are very few people out there these days doing things "not for the money". Thank you very much for your attempt in changing the industry. I can't imagine it's a cheap endeavor to get something like this going so I'd just like to throw out there that I and I'm sure many others would be willing to help support your efforts through crowd funding donations if ever needed.

This is a really great thing you're trying to do. Hope it works out, not just so I can get disease free fish for my tank, but similar to your thoughts, to stop the cruelty that's going on for the sake of profit at the expense of life.

 

[CodyRVA]

I would not pay more for a fish that has been in a retailer QT procedures mostly because I don't trust people.

As you state this is a matter of personal trust which is a larger topic than just the "product" being sold. Fair point, i mean you pay top dollar for a QT fish, but can you be sure it was done in good conscience? Personally, I wouldn't buy a fish from a shop at all, QT or not, unless I trusted them and if I did, then I might spring for the higher cost QT fish. That being said, if i don't trust them, i'm usually using them as a last resort for dry stock/emergency items and rarely, if ever, buying their livestock.

 

[ReefWithCare]

I would pay double the price of what the fish would normally sell for and would expect a 30 day store credit guarantee.

If it is a particular finicky fish like a CBB - Triple

 

[paraletho]

It will be interesting to see if Humblefish can make this work. While I applaud the effort, my guess is that it's impractical. I've thought about it, and the only way I could see it working is to position it as a service. You pay for the fish and I charge a QT service fee. If the fish dies in the process, you bear the cost. Upcharge is a function of fish classes. Small ones are less expensive to QT that large ones; some species easier than others. Probably a range of $20/fish to $100/fish. The one thing to consider is if a person's tank has latent disease. This can be quite common with ich. So you buy a certified disease-free fish, put it in your tank, and a week later it shows ich. What is the recourse? Maybe it wasn't actually disease free; or maybe your tank was infected.

The other thing to consider is that folks that value QT (and would be the addressable market for such a service) are likely to prefer to do it themselves. Me, for example.

I have been working with @Humblefish on an order for a 300 gallon system. Their are ways to check for latent disease such as the Black Molly test, which I gladly performed. It gives me confidence and him some assurance of a good starting point. Again this requires some trust on both sides. I think he will get it worked out and look forward to being able to purchase fish albeit more expensive with a greater confidence of sucess. It is too bad he has run into this bump in the road. Everyone needs to realize that this isn’t an instantaneous process and patience and communication are key. Also availability will never be as high as mass market fish. For myself that isn’t an issue as I am more of a long term resident fish kind of hobbyist versus the favorite fish of the week kind.

 

[Brew12]

First.
I work full time at a saltwater specialty fish store. My perspective on this is probably going to be different than some other folks. So I get a shipment of fish in and I mark them up double or triple depending on what they are. We try to keep our prices inline with live aquaria and such. If you guys look around on the forum you will see many retailers or people heavily involved in the industry talking about how to health of the fish entering the market has gone downhill and how prevalent certain diseases and parasites are. So I get a few boxes of fish and and guess what, some of those fish are going to die. Bottom line there will be lose, hopefully it will be no more than 10%. Now in no way would I try to sell a sick fish and I don't keep low levels of copper in my system or hypo salinity or any of those gimmicks. However it can take awhile for fish to get sick. The local fish store is also not putting fish in large tanks and giving them the perfect environment, they are usually in smaller than ideal tanks and the fish density is usually high and the water quality is usually not SPS growing quality as far as nutrient levels go. Realistically the longer that I hold onto that fish the better the chances of that fish getting sick and not making it. I've had anthias all start dropping after they were here for 3 months doing perfect along with other stories.

We can only see what is going on on the outside of the fish, nothing more. That would be like with us humans and a doctor only treating something that he can see on our skin. There is way more going on than just the 5 or 6 things we hobbyists treat fish for. The most profitable business model for a retail fish store is to get the fish in and out as fast as possible. We do offer a guarantee on our fish, but that fish is going to stand a better chance in someones low nutrient level mature reef tank that is appropriate sized being fed 3 times a day than they are going to be in a retail setting.

All that being said there is no way in hell I would be willing to QT a Tamarin Wrasse for the same "fees" as say a yellow tang if the replacement of the fish was on me. Or a better comparison would be a yellow tang vas a gem tang, They are basically as hardly and the QT really shouldn't be an issue, but I am taking a bigger financial risk of even simply holding that fish for an extra 4-6 weeks. Me having to lose out on $20 to replace a fish is much different than losing out on $400 to replace a fish. The idea of a percentage is what I would base it on with a few exceptions. When we talked about selling pre-QTd fish here at the store that is what we decided that we would go with. Personally I think the 50% - 100% uncharge is about accurate to my opinion. Granted at the same time I'm not QTing a blue damsel unless it is as a personal favor. I would probably charge slightly more for delicate fish to maybe significantly more for difficult fish. Like a mandarine, I would pay a big uncharge for a QTed mandarine. I get Copper Banded Butterflys eating all the time, but I understand peoples thoughts on paying a larger uncharge for those fish, but I would also want that same larger upcharge for expensive fish.

Granted the people responding to this thread are the people who even know about and/or care about Quarantine. I would say that most of my customers wouldn't care. The ones who do care would be willing to pay whatever I would ask and the rest of them would just want to know why the other fish were so expensive and not buy them.

There is a different store in my city that will treat your fish in copper for $5 a day per fish. I am not sure if the fish dining is on you or on them. The reason why they don't sell QTd fish has been mentioned above and that is in regards to people having parasites in their system or adding them into their system on something else and the QTd fish getting the blame.

Thank you for taking the time to share this. Fantastic stuff.

 

[d2mini]

If an LFS did full QT on select fish, I would easily pay 20-30% more for those fish.

 

[Surfzone]

As you state this is a matter of personal trust which is a larger topic than just the "product" being sold. Fair point, i mean you pay top dollar for a QT fish, but can you be sure it was done in good conscience? Personally, I wouldn't buy a fish from a shop at all, QT or not, unless I trusted them and if I did, then I might spring for the higher cost QT fish. That being said, if i don't trust them, i'm usually using them as a last resort for dry stock/emergency items and rarely, if ever, buying their livestock.

Good point. I'm not saying I dis trust my LFS in fact I have a lot of faith in them, however I don't see the point in buying a fish that went through their QT knowing that it is going through my QT as well. With that said yes the likelihood survivorship goes up however if you are an experienced or just logical buyer at any store you know what to look for in any fish that you buy. Also when it comes to the more sensitive fish like butterflies I feel like that is going to be one giant risk no matter what.

 

[lagatbezan]

I would pay more since that usually means the fish is in much better health as well since its been through a thorough qt, but I would still do a qt myself where I would monitor the fish for a few weeks just for my own piece of mind.

 

[Tabasco1]

FWIW-I'd absolutely be willing to pay more for livestock that I knew went through QT from a vendor I trusted. In the poll I selected $20-50. I think in certain instances a percentage is appropriate, and in some others a dollar amount is appropriate. It would really depend on the fish. For example, green chromis almost always come in with uronema, this is a $5 fish and I'd pay $25-30/each for that has been through QT.

For me ... I really don't want to have another tank set up. Right now I have 3. A fish QT, coral QT and display. My husband hates the QT tank. More over I have such limited time that I'd rather be spending doing other things. It is also not something I'm super experienced at doing either and is stressful for me.

 

[squampton]

I have noticed a lot more diseased/injured/skinny looking to the point they are starving arriving into my local store more and more, like coming out of the box from the suppliers looking like this, so I place the blame on the wholesale/distribution companies and likely collecting points, the whole distribution system really should be changed.

I also notice a higher mortality of fish coming from certain regions of the world over others, leads me to think there is a problem at the collection points.

 

[ca1ore]

If an LFS did full QT on select fish, I would easily pay 20-30% more for those fish.

Isn't that Diver's Den?

 

[PDR]

Isn't that Diver's Den?

DD does not do a full QT. There are still some parasites and diseases that make it past their system.

 

[d2mini]

Isn't that Diver's Den?

Kind of, and I do shop there. Actually, that's the only place I'll order fish from online.
Although there is debate on exactly how extensive their QT really is. But the way I see it, it's better than everywhere else.

 

[ca1ore]

It is too bad he has run into this bump in the road.

I haven't really been following what he's been doing (since I prefer to do my own QT) - what bump in the road?

 

[JaimeAdams]

You know around my parts and probably other peoples parts we have stores that sell MAC certified fish. My issue is that it doesn't mean much. I have other stores selling fish as Quarantined because they sat in a Marine Aquarium Council certified wholesaler for a week before they got shipped out to them. Then a customer buys said fish with some unfounded sense of confidence. Once again the people reading this thread or even the forums themselves are the low minority in this hobby.

 

[JaimeAdams]

I haven't really been following what he's been doing (since I prefer to do my own QT) - what bump in the road?

I think they are referring to the large loss due to aggressive gram negative bacteria.