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Mathew0
Active Member
No more casualties, but the ammonia badge says the levels are creeping up. I added some ammonia remover this morning. The badges aren’t instant, so I’ll see if it’s closer to yellow when I get home from work.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I don't want to get into the debate about particular products - BUT - IMHO - the most sure way to get rid of ammonia in this case is a water change - or 2 added bacteria (such as Fritz 9000).
ariellemermaid
Well-Known Member
You mean to get rid of a percentage of the ammonia
. With my first uncycled QT I went the Fritz 9000 route actually. That was the one where the ammonia went to 0.5 and the fish died. Many ways to skin a cat of course. For me, I’m just a fan of protecting fish from ammonia first, then dealing with water changes, cycling bacteria, etc.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Thats fine - If you did a 100% water change you would get rid of all of itYou mean to get rid of a percentage of the ammonia
Many ways to skin a cat of course. For me, I’m just a fan of protecting fish from ammonia first, then dealing with water changes, cycling bacteria, etc.
. But - all kidding aside - a water change is the fastest and best method for quickly lowering ammonia levels.
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Mathew0
Active Member
Well, the Topfin ammonia remover doesn’t seem to be working, or at least it isn’t keeping up with the fish. I can’t do daily 20% water changes with this volume and keep up with the copper. Is there any other methods that I can try? Dosing bacteria doesn’t seem like a plausible solution considering there’s very little for the bacteria to settle into and grow on. Is Seachem Prime something any of you have had success with? Some other ammonia remover?
Jay Hemdal
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Some general thoughts here: Copper Power, when added to water will give you a baseline ammonia reading of 0.50 ppm. This is due to the amine used to bind with the copper ions to make them less toxic to the fish. That form of ammonia is not toxic to the fish, so subtract that from any readings.
In a small tank with no biofilter, ammonia can build at 0.5 to even 1 ppm per day. That makes water changes harder, even a 50% change per day may not keep up with it.
Ammonia “removers” may not work as advertised, and some of these may break the copper/amine bond, rendering the copper more toxic.
Bacteria in a bottle/enzyme products work, but you may have to be add a lot of them, and not all brands work well.
The best way to control ammonia in a QT is to move bacteria from your DT by moving some seeded filter media over (avoiding calcium based media because that reacts with copper meds)
ariellemermaid
Well-Known Member
I don’t blame you. I can’t imagine 20% daily water changes and getting the replacement copper dose perfect, and how many tests you’d have to run. I don’t recall what kind of filter you’re using but you can add sponges for the bacteria. Just no rock of any kind. This is Humblefish’s article on the topic. Prime is a great product and will protect your fish from the ammonia, and is safe with copper power/safe but NOT cupramine or other ionic coppers (according to the company and from the experience of myself and others). However, none of these products are ammonia removers. Your ammonia levels will stay the same. It just binds the (free) ammonia and makes it non-toxic to fish. Eventually, you’ll either need bacteria or water changes to deal with it, Prime is just a temporizer. I’ve used some Prime with every QT I’ve done because I let the tank run fallow for some time between batches and worry the bio filter has weakened. Since there’s no way to accurately measure ammonia with copper, it’s just a precaution I take. Might be overkill, but I’m just saying I’ve had no issues with copper toxicity.
Cycling takes time, even with starter bacteria. I’ve done it many times, dosing bacteria and ammonia, and tracking the ammonia level. Maybe a week at best. This is Dr. Tim’s fishless cycling method with ammonia and live bacteria they predict 5-7 days but I’ve had it take even longer.
I just want to say Jay is the absolute seasoned expert and professional; nothing I say should ever be construed in any way to challenge anything he says. I’m just telling you what I’ve done that’s worked. As he said, cycled non-rock media would be the best, but, I didn’t mention that because I’m just guessing your tank doesn’t use any sponges. And typically you’d want them in the tank for a long while (like months) to really seed so it’s too late for that.
Yes, your ammonia tests are useless with copper. They will always be false positive, all of them. That’s part of what makes ammonia so dangerous and why I’m so paranoid about it…you just don’t really know. The exception is the seachem badge, but very few people actually trust it (me from experience). I did recently learn about the seachem ammonia kit, which does use the same technology, but I feel like it could be promising the way it’s done. For one, it has more shades of color to evaluate, and I wonder if fresh reagents rather than a badge could be more reliable. I’ve actually ordered it to experiment with. And FYI the badge and half of the test kit is measuring free ammonia not total ammonia for what it’s worth. But free ammonia is the toxic stuff so that’s what matters.
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MnFish1
10K Club member
There are many bacterial products that recommend adding bacteria and fish on day 1. I have done this many times (perhaps hundreds) with no problems. I would not say ammonia tests are 'useless' - Depending on the type of copper used - additionally, the Seachem Alert badge for a QT setting seems to be reliable during my use.
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Mathew0
Active Member
Luckily I did have a chunk of coarse black foam that has been in my sump for over a year. I put that in the QT when I set it up. The filter I bought also has 2 black sponge filters, but they’re brand new. I do have a bottle of Microbacter I can dump in there to help boost the bacteria. There not much surface area to grow on considering the volume and # of fish, tho.
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Mathew0
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All signs of infection appear to be gone and the fish are all eating and active.
I’m still not sure what to do with the eel. I don’t have a 3rd tank to put him in. He’s not showing any signs of illness, but the DT can’t be fallow with him in there.
I’m still not sure what to do with the eel. I don’t have a 3rd tank to put him in. He’s not showing any signs of illness, but the DT can’t be fallow with him in there.
Jay Hemdal
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As I said, if you are using an amine based copper, the eel would possibly go off feed for a bit, but I’ve never had Coppersafe outright kill an eel. Leaving it untreated is risky as you fish could get reinfected from it. Sometimes, you need to do a risk analysis and just try to figure out the lesser of two evils….
findingDory
Community Member
In the past I have used PolypLab medic in my DT to treat velvet. I did lose one fish but most of them were saved. Not sure if you want to try this as a prophylactic in your DT?
Amazon.com
https://www.amazon.com › Polyp-Lab-Medic-30ml
Medic 30ml by Polyp Lab
Amazon.com
https://www.amazon.com › Polyp-Lab-Medic-30ml
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
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Mathew0
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Update:
Everything has been going well until Friday/saturday. I noticed that the tangs look like their fins are kinda dissolving. The semicircle angel as well. He also has whitish blotches I his blue bands and his dad is very red. The cardinals’ are reddish around the gills and they could be enflamed. Copper is still at 2.3, salinity at 35, and the ammonia badge is yellow.
This morning the purple tang was dead. I feel like the qt process is killing the fish. Is there something I need to change?
@Jay Hemdal
Everything has been going well until Friday/saturday. I noticed that the tangs look like their fins are kinda dissolving. The semicircle angel as well. He also has whitish blotches I his blue bands and his dad is very red. The cardinals’ are reddish around the gills and they could be enflamed. Copper is still at 2.3, salinity at 35, and the ammonia badge is yellow.
This morning the purple tang was dead. I feel like the qt process is killing the fish. Is there something I need to change?
@Jay Hemdal
