As discussed before the ingredient in Vibrant seems similar to another product called Algaefix. I used it once - and it was not a positive experience (didn't perform the way it said it would). So - I'm an actual user as well. But if you're interested in that thread, it's quite extensive. The general reason why companies don't list all of the ingredients, is that often the chemicals involved are widely available at much lower prices. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't work. Vice versa, just because a company lists their ingredients does not imply they do work. I'm thinking about multiple 'herbal' remedies that people often use for treatment/prevention of disease.
The warning on your label does not apply to the dosages used in aquaria. I'm also not aware of a majority of people complaining that algae fix kills their coral, et. Thousands of people have vibrant in reef tanks with no toxicity. Some have had problems. Your label also says the product is toxic to fish, right, yet despite multiple hundreds of posts here, I'm not aware that either vibrant or algae fix are 'toxic to fish', and though some have had issues with coral (as I posted in the thread months ago) including myself, its far from a normal occurrence when using these chemicals (which is why I posted 'when dosed correctly' above.No proof?
Vibrant is Busan77. That is irrefutable and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point. Busan77 specifically states in its warnings it will kill certain aquatic animals. Mollusks being a key one. Maybe mollusks aren’t in your definition of “corals invertebrates or fish?”
Here is the exact quote from the SDS for Busan77:
That’s pretty clear and plenty of proof
I agree with the reasons some reasons you gave as to why companies do and don't list ingredients. I'm more focused on those that don't list them and don't respond for more than a year after "we'll get back to you". I did see Randy's comment saying it seems to be similar to Algaefix. Wouldn't copper have a lot of the same/similar negatives? Maybe other things like ReefFlux? It's too bad we don't have the laboratories necessary to prove that some products, not necessarily the products mentioned here, are snake oil. But when a significant percentage of people lose fish, corals, etc., I try to find alternatives. I have too much invested to risk using certain magic potions. I'm thankful for threads like this, and for the various points of view.
www.reef2reef.com
Let's see if we can help clean up the reef supply world by getting vendors to drop false claim products.
let's start here:
Brightwell Boost pH+
I'd like to suggest that you drop the Brightwell product Boost pH+ from your product line since it is misleading consumers about what it can do. Clearly, it cannot do what you (on your web site) and they claim. https://premiumaquatics.com/products/brightwell-aquatics-boost-ph-250ml.html...
From it, in the Premium Aquatics vendor forum:
I'd like to suggest that you drop the Brightwell product Boost pH+ from your product line since it is misleading consumers about what it can do.
Clearly, it cannot do what you (on your web site) and they claim.
Brightwell Aquatics Boost pH+, 250ml
Boost pH+ High Range pH Increaser deals with excess CO2, raises pH only without increasing alkalinity or calcium (in tanks already having a proper dKH) high range pH increaser for all marine aquaria, particularly useful when excess CO2 is a problem. Allows easily maintaining a pH of...premiumaquatics.com
"High Range pH Increaser deals with excess CO2, raises pH only without increasing alkalinity or calcium (in tanks already having a proper dKH)"
"Warning: Contains caustic sodium and potassium hydroxides;"
So, the product contains hydroxide (the actual active ingredient), and yet does not increase alkalinity.
That is, of course, simply not true, as folks supplementing calcium and alkalinity using kalkwasser can attest.
Hydroxide instantly boosts alkalinity.
Please either drop this product, or have Brightwell change their label and their advertising copy on your sales web site.
Wow. The first entry was enough for me. I have to wonder just how concerned some of these companies care about the hobby, other than as a source of income.It was proven to be the same chemical that is also in Busan. Likely just repackaged, but certainly that cannot be proven.
Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77
The purpose of this post is to look closely at Vibrant to compare its properties to a known algaecide, Algaefix by API. This is intended to shed light on the active ingredients in Vibrant, explain its mechanism of action, and give people insight into its use and what to expect. It is not a...
Unless that company has access to another distributor, it's likely the easiest way. Remember when reef suppliers started selling repackaged calcium chloride and baking soda packaged as various products labeled Part A and B? I've used your generic Improved 2-Part (4-part, actually, considering the dual Mg part) for over a decade, using 94-97% CaCl ice melt, baking soda (now washing soda for pH effects), Epsom salts and MgCl ice melt.
A friend once tried to convince that the 1000++ car audio system was so much better because the sound was so pure and clear. He just looked at me when I asked whether or not the engine and traffic noise doesn’t make it a moot pointThank goodness you are not an Audiophile or Home Theater enthusiast (that I know of)/ That industry is built on golden ear and golden eye hooey. Cleaning electrons and other amazing devices that alter the electromagnetic spectrum in ways hat only the gifted can hear and the creators can understand, even of the outcome can't be measured by any known device (other then the golden ear or eye) and contradicts all known science.
Try arguing with one of those folks once
If you read what I wrote you’ll see that you’re saying something I did not. I never said ignore the SDS sheet etc etc. i said if dosed correctly there is no clear proof that it’s toxic in an aquarium. There could be a large environmental impact if Busan 77 escaped / leaked from a large pond into the environment. That’s totally unrelated to home aquarium use.
My general approach when adding any product saying that it can magically fix my problem is to begin dosing at a fraction of the recommended dose, then waiting for a few days before increasing the dosage slowly until I start noticing any changes, bad or good. I have a feeling that most people aren't as careful, possibly dosing more than the recommended amount in an effort to get a quick result. Patience doesn't seem ubiquitous in the hobby.
BTW - curious - what if your toothpaste - which seems to be re-invented every year - does not prevent cavities, does not prevent gum disease, etc etc. IMHO - The majority of these claims are untrue. I remember (back some years) when dentyne gum supposedly prevented cavities - there was some huge lawsuit (which they lost) - now there is at least one gum producer making the same claim.
