Pressure on False Claim Products

[rtparty]

The outrage on message boards about Vibrant did not stop reefing supply companies from selling it, it was the customers who wrote and called that did.

The largest reefing supply company stopped carrying it days after the news broke. Even before the message boards gained serious traction.

I’m the one that sent them the thread from taricha and had a long conversation about it all. That was on a Saturday I think and by Monday or Tuesday, it was pulled

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Seachem has responded again with a clarification and a more detailed response. They understand the processes involved (such as the conversion of bicarbonate to carbonate), but do not yet accept that this raises alkalinity. Not sure how that's a tricky one... I followed up with a detailed response (mostly what is in the thread I posted in the main forum today), and will post the results of the ongoing discussion once it reaches a conclusion.

I'm very cautiously optimistic.

 

[workhz]

There are laws that companies have to follow in both the US and EU - not sure about other places. Without these, soda companies could claim that their drinks cure cancer or some crazy stuff. It amazes me that folks probably would have outrage if a Cola Company said that their drink cured cancer, but they are OK with a reefing company claiming that their XYZ product did ABC to their tank without any evidence when it was just along for the ride when a tank matured a bit.

Difference is people consume soda. What you put in your body is different than what you pour into your tank. The law differentiate between people and animals. I say this from experience a little bit as I had a vet perform, in retrospect, what I now believe was completely unnecessary surgery on a cat. Animals are treated as goods/property in Virginia anyway. Vet kills your cat, well ... here's $1k to buy a new one and that's after you sue them. Hardly worth the effort.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Did you ever get an answer from Boyd? I have always used chemipure blue as a marine formulation or high ph freshwater tank and plain chemipure as a freshwater product. As to the trace elements - my guess is they are trying to say they will remove toxic levels of copper (i.e. after a treatment) - but implying that low trace-levels of copper will not be. They also claim that fish live 3-4x longer in treated tanks... So I guess I take everything companies say with a 'grain of salt'

I only sent that a few hours ago, but have not yet gotten even an electronic response that "we got the question".

 

[Pod_01]

lol

You know, that would not surprise me. Maybe someone with current access to Chat GPT can ask it if hydroxide boosts alkalinity in seawater.

Answer from Chat GPT when I asked if the statement was true:

The statement you provided contains several key points about the chemistry of water treatment, specifically in the context of pH and alkalinity management:

1. **Hydroxide Blend Binding Acid Sources to Raise pH**: This is true. Hydroxide ions (OH-) are basic and can neutralize acidic components in a solution, thereby raising the pH.

2. **Conversion of Carbonate to Bicarbonate**: This is also a valid chemical process. In the presence of hydroxide ions, carbonate ions (CO3^2-) can convert to bicarbonate ions (HCO3^-). This reaction can occur as part of the buffering system in the water.

3. **Not Raising Alkalinity but Reorganizing Buffer Balance**: This part is a bit more complex. The addition of hydroxides can indeed affect the balance of carbonate and bicarbonate, which are major components of alkalinity in water. However, the statement that it "does not raise alkalinity" might not be entirely accurate. Alkalinity, as a measure of the water's capacity to neutralize acids, can be influenced by the presence of hydroxide, carbonate, and bicarbonate ions. The exact effect on alkalinity would depend on the initial composition of the water and the amount of hydroxide added.

In summary, the statement is mostly true in terms of the chemical interactions described, but the impact on alkalinity might vary depending on the specific conditions of the water tank.


So…… mostly true….

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Answer from Chat GPT when I asked if the statement was true:

The statement you provided contains several key points about the chemistry of water treatment, specifically in the context of pH and alkalinity management:

1. **Hydroxide Blend Binding Acid Sources to Raise pH**: This is true. Hydroxide ions (OH-) are basic and can neutralize acidic components in a solution, thereby raising the pH.

2. **Conversion of Carbonate to Bicarbonate**: This is also a valid chemical process. In the presence of hydroxide ions, carbonate ions (CO3^2-) can convert to bicarbonate ions (HCO3^-). This reaction can occur as part of the buffering system in the water.

3. **Not Raising Alkalinity but Reorganizing Buffer Balance**: This part is a bit more complex. The addition of hydroxides can indeed affect the balance of carbonate and bicarbonate, which are major components of alkalinity in water. However, the statement that it "does not raise alkalinity" might not be entirely accurate. Alkalinity, as a measure of the water's capacity to neutralize acids, can be influenced by the presence of hydroxide, carbonate, and bicarbonate ions. The exact effect on alkalinity would depend on the initial composition of the water and the amount of hydroxide added.

In summary, the statement is mostly true in terms of the chemical interactions described, but the impact on alkalinity might vary depending on the specific conditions of the water tank.


So…… mostly true….

Thanks. ChatGPT is, I guess "mostly correct". lol

 

[Nonya]

I would assume that companies that do any actual chemistry research on their products contract it out to other laboratories. I do not know the percentage of companies that do or don't.

I agree they should, and those companies should also make the externally-provided test results available.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

They had Trucks come into the Loading Dock at work, that were well over 100 F Degrees, too hot to safely go into. Used the Dock Fans to cool them off. Would anything survive in those conditions?

 

[Nonya]

The largest reefing supply company stopped carrying it...

I have to think Amazon is the world's largest now. There's not much that it doesn't sell in huge numbers.

 

[Doctor Derp]

Most companies have a product or two where they make false claims/assumptions. It doesn't make the entire company bad though IMO

Many Brightwell products work extremely well. Even some that they don't market properly

Sure it does. You don't earn a get out of jail free card because *some* of your products don't break the rules.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have to think Amazon is the world's largest now. There's not much that it doesn't sell in huge numbers.

Unfortunately, I have not found a way at amazon to make a claim about a false product claim (if I did not buy it).

 

[rawhideshaba]

I haven't done water changes in 5 years. I add trace elements, Ca, Alk and Mg according to Randy's recipe regularly and send a water sample in every 6 months to see how I'm doing on the traces.

gonna need a link to those recipes if you would.

 

[Nonya]

Unfortunately, I have not found a way at amazon to make a claim about a false product claim (if I did not buy it).

Go to the product page, then click Report an issue with this product or seller, then follow the links to "other". It probably won't result in any changes. Judging from the number of positive reviews, Amazon is selling a ton of the stuff. I think the best way to effect change is to post your findings in all of the major chat sites if they insist on ignoring the truth.

 

[Nonya]

gonna need a link to those recipes if you would.

No problem. I've been using this since 2010. https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

[Nonya]

gonna need a link to those recipes if you would.

It's a Randy recipe. Here's the calculator to use. https://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

 

[rawhideshaba]

It's a Randy recipe. Here's the calculator to use. https://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

thank you seen this a few times and through the internet "noise" I never did try his method. Going to check it out now.

 

[Nonya]

Amazon is still selling Vibrant, Brightwell Boost pH+, and probably many unmentioned ineffective products.

 

[Nonya]

thank you seen this a few times and through the internet "noise" I never did try his method. Going to check it out now.

Thanks. Randy has one or more threads that suggest improvements on the formula, but this is definitely effective for me.

 

[hexcolor reef]

Let's see if we can help clean up the reef supply world by getting vendors to drop false claim products.


"High Range pH Increaser deals with excess CO2, raises pH only without increasing alkalinity or calcium (in tanks already having a proper dKH)"

"Warning: Contains caustic sodium and potassium hydroxides;"

So, the product contains hydroxide (the actual active ingredient), and yet does not increase alkalinity.

That is, of course, simply not true, as folks supplementing calcium and alkalinity using kalkwasser can attest.

Hydroxide instantly boosts alkalinity.

And I got scalded when I said this in my Alkalinity thread months ago.
Didn’t even give me the proper respect of having mentioned why reefers who buy these products are having issues due to false claiming products in the reefing hobby

 

[danimal1211]

thank you seen this a few times and through the internet "noise" I never did try his method. Going to check it out now.

I’ve found that when the noise seems overwhelming, Randy has already written the article that’ll calm my nerves and they’re all stickied in one post at the top of this forum.