Pro Reef salt from Turkey

[rtparty]

And before anyone thinks I'm standing up for TM here, I have a brand new box from Turkey sitting on my shelf and I'm extremely hesitant to start my new 250g with it.

Current plans are to throw it away and just go back to ESV. A salt I KNOW will always perform how I expect. Almost 12 years using it now and never an issue.

 

[spicymikey]

Don't know. But I canceled my delivery for TM from BRS.
They were understanding about it.

Probably a good idea. I assume they will never admit it. I wouldnt. But I assume they also are horrified by this and are taking immediate actions to fix the problem. Use something else for now and go back to it in a couple mnths. I'm sure the problem will be corrected.

I have one more box I bought at the same time. I'm going to clean out this vat and mix that last box. If it "rusts" again I'll throw it out and switch to Reef Crystals for awhile. If it doesn't have this problem I'll assume it was a short lived manufacturing issue.

One thing for sure, I will never use a mix without eyeballing it again. Live and learn. I'll mix my 100 gal vat and let it sit for a week to see what happens. If it stays clear THEN I'll use it.

 

[poidog]

88ppb is .08ppm and hardly an issue (assuming it's even from the salt and not your mixing container.) A 10% water change wouldn't even register a change on your test.

88 ppb is .27 phosphate, unless I'm mistaken. That is a large of enough swing, depending how much of a water change was done, to shock SPS coming from an ULNS.

https://www.hannainst.com/hubfs/006-finished-content/Aquarium/phosphorus-to-phosphate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf

 

[ReefHog]

This is/was a real TM issue, not just a few user errors. I've been using TM for years with no issues. Then all of a sudden brown gunk all over the inside of my mixing container. The batch mine was from was bought over the summer from BRS and I put the bag from the box into a bucket for easier access and threw out the box. So unfortunately, I don't know where it was produced. At first I thought maybe I left the top off or something got in the mixing container. But every batch from that box had the same issues. I didn't notice any adverse affects from my corals or fish but It was a mixed reef with mostly hardy SPS. I did a search and found that the same issue is affecting dozens and probably a LOT more people across the various forums and social media outlets. I've worked with Lou in the past and am not bashing him Hans or TM. I'm sure they are taking this seriously. But something affected one or more batches of their salt. It may or may not cause issues in a reef tank. It did not in mine. I had the same looking brown gunk when I used to use reef crystals and leave it in the container for weeks. That didn't affect my corals or fish either but I don't want to have to clean a 40 gallon mixing container every few weeks at three times the cost of Reef Crystals. I like to mix up a batch of sea water and have it last for a month. That's the main reason I went with TM years ago. It stays very stable after being mixed. That and the fact it mixes up at the same parameters that I maintain. For now I have switched salts and will keep up to date on the progress of this issue. When/if the source of this discussion is found and corrected, I will decide if I want to go back to TM salt. I will continue to use many of their other products.

 

[rtparty]

88 ppb is .27 phosphate, unless I'm mistaken. That is a large of enough swing, depending how much of a water change was done, to shock SPS coming from an ULNS.

https://www.hannainst.com/hubfs/006-finished-content/Aquarium/phosphorus-to-phosphate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf

I just converted it to ppm of phosphorous. Thanks for the chart

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I’ve been following many threads about tropic Marin pro salt over the past year and this is my findings. I used instant ocean for about eight years before this just set up a brand new 250 gallon mixing station that I decided I only wanted to use Tropic Marin pro after reading how clean it mixes because I was tired of having to clean the brown crud out of my barrels using instant ocean. I decided on Tropic Marin because of the design of the mixing container will be very hard to clean the inside standing 7 feet tall with an opening of only 18 inches would be nearly impossible to clean brown crud out tropic Maren was the only way to go is how I seen it. So being a business owner I have a connection for the 220 gallon bags of store use only Tropic Marin pro salt. Knowing that I was going to be doing this for a long time decided to pick up 20 bags of 220 gallon mix. For about the last seven months I’ve been using a bag a month I went through seven 220 gallon bags. Of the 20. Last month I decided to stand on a ladder to look at the bottom of the container and found it was completely full of brown sludge almost looked slimy the optical sensors I have in there were covered in the slime giving me false readings now back to stating this mixing station was completely brand new never been used and I just put six 220 gallon bags through it and I have brown slime all over the inside of the mixing station. I only bought Tropic Marin pro because it was not supposed to do this. I still have 13 bags left that’s over 4000 gallons of water to be made full of salt that is making my mixing station brown slimy. Now the point of my story is I end up finding this thread and looking at all of the bags and they’re all made in Turkey. I do not have experience with the German made salt to tell you that it was not turning slimy brown but I 100% percent have experience with the turkey made salt turning brown and slimy in my mixing station I have no problems sending samples of salt or pictures of my mixing station but if tropic Marin wants to say it does not turn brown and slimy they are wrong I have 100% proof of this and actually pretty upset that I spent the extra money when I could’ve just stuck with the instant ocean and had the same results . @Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

 

[Hydrored]

This is/was a real TM issue, not just a few user errors. I've been using TM for years with no issues. Then all of a sudden brown gunk all over the inside of my mixing container. The batch mine was from was bought over the summer from BRS and I put the bag from the box into a bucket for easier access and threw out the box. So unfortunately, I don't know where it was produced. At first I thought maybe I left the top off or something got in the mixing container. But every batch from that box had the same issues. I didn't notice any adverse affects from my corals or fish but It was a mixed reef with mostly hardy SPS. I did a search and found that the same issue is affecting dozens and probably a LOT more people across the various forums and social media outlets. I've worked with Lou in the past and am not bashing him Hans or TM. I'm sure they are taking this seriously. But something affected one or more batches of their salt. It may or may not cause issues in a reef tank. It did not in mine. I had the same looking brown gunk when I used to use reef crystals and leave it in the container for weeks. That didn't affect my corals or fish either but I don't want to have to clean a 40 gallon mixing container every few weeks at three times the cost of Reef Crystals. I like to mix up a batch of sea water and have it last for a month. That's the main reason I went with TM years ago. It stays very stable after being mixed. That and the fact it mixes up at the same parameters that I maintain. For now I have switched salts and will keep up to date on the progress of this issue. When/if the source of this discussion is found and corrected, I will decide if I want to go back to TM salt. I will continue to use many of their other products.

+1

I have also been using TM for years, what changed is like the pic I posted before, I got a black/grey color from the Turkey salt in the sock, never have I once got that discoloration in mixing TM salt making 35 gallons a week for the last 3 years.

Something is off, I like TM and will continue to support them using other products, for now going to try another salt and see how it goes.

 

[DWill]

To your last point, that is extremely common though. Maybe not with Mercedes exactly but BMW builds a load of their cars here. The X3 has always been made here in their South Carolina plant. Would you cry foul for that? A lot of American cars are coming out of Mexico these days. Hondas aren't built in Japan. Etc etc

I can't find anywhere that says we are buying TM salt specifically made in Germany.

BMW you are correct. I will also add that having owned at least one BMW, typically M cars, continuously since 1980 the quality of the cars assembled in the US is far below those assembled in Germany. I won’t buy a US produced BMW.

Back to the topic. I’m the same issues with the Turkish TMP. After using about a half bucket I’ve also started noticing differences in water parameters which thanks to careful notes and record keeping I quickly chased to a time frame shortly after I began using Turkey produced TMP. I’ve already posted a pic in this thread of a small container that is completely brown. This container has only TMP missed water and the brown “gunk” showed up shortly after I began using Turkish TMP.

I believe TM will find and solve the problems. My plan in the meantime is to use ESV mix. I’m really not looking forward to the extra steps mixing new water. I believe though it won’t take too long for TM to correct the issues we are seeing.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Now to state how I mix and use the salt. I fill up my mixing container with 220 gallons of fresh 0TDS Aro DI water at room temperature which is about 65° in my basement then I turn on the mixing pump which sucks it from the bottom and shoots it back in the top as I pour the 220 gallons mix worth of powder into the top I let it mix for at least two hours like that the temperature from just mixing rises from 65 to about 68 6970° and I turn off the pump now my Apex cycles that pump three times a day for 20 minutes I let it do this for two days then I turn on my automatic water change buttons that supply a total of 6 gallons a day to my two different systems. Over the course of a month the pump circulates three times a day for 20 minutes each as the automatic water change system continues to drain the water from the mixing station over the course of about a month. The water in the mixing station stays between 65 and 72° the whole time being mixed three times a day for 20 minutes each time if I’m doing something wrong please let me know how we can avoid the brown slime. Also I want to say the containers are closed up at the top but have two small 1 inch vents so the tanks are not sealed tightly and are being vented

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I'm very sorry that you feel that way. I'm not sure what I can say to allay your fears. But I do want to just point out that the Mn and Fe concentrations, shown in this ICP report, match exactly what Hans-Werner Balling has stated above have been the concentrations in Tropic Marin salt mixes for many years. I can assure you that these Fe and Mn values are not the cause of your issue. Have you checked your tank system water for Fe and Mn? My guess is that you are not seeing concentrations like these in your system. If you have been using Tropic Marin for 12 years, you have been using salts with these concentrations for that period of time. To quote Hans-Werner Balling's post:

"we usually find around 100 ppb Mn with extremes from ca. 80 to 180 ppb. Concentrations are determinded by our routine ICP-OES batch checks.
I recall a talk of Julian Sprung some years ago where he attributed the success with Goniopora at the Waikiki Aquarium Hawaii to the water taken from a well rich in manganese.
Iron concentrations we find in our salts are around 1/3 of the Mn concentrations, around 30 ppb."

This has all been true for many years. Please don't take my comments as "defensive". I just want to give you the information so you know that these Fe and Mn values are NOT the cause of your coral losses.

Posted above my experience take it with a grain of salt no pun intended

 

[((FORDTECH))]

In my experience in most cases when Acropora react this way I would suspect high alkalinity or low phosphate concentration. Maybe meanwhile I would also add low iodine concentration.

Since reef aquaria are living and dynamic systems this may occur at every age of the corals. Maybe a salt mix has contributed to this, maybe not. From this single observation, even if the problems are caused by the salt mix, the salt mix could be better or worse in its parameters.

Let's say phosphate was at its lower limit and other elements like for example iodine or nickel where limiting also, "improving" the conditions by adding iodine and nickel and releasing the corals from this limitation may finally depress phosphate concentrations further, causing damage to the corals. A lower phosphate concentration in the salt mix may even contribute to the problem although phosphate concentration should be as low as possible, of course.

In reef aquaria, things are only very rarely simple, usually they are complex. This makes the search for causes difficult.

In a reef tank well stocked with SPS, every day of dosing Ca, KH and trace elements may do more to stabilize or destabilize the water parameters than a 10 % water change.

Of course the saltwater is the basis for reefing, nevertheless the impact of a single or a few water changes of 10 % each should not be overestimated. It is more the stabilizing long-term effect that counts.


I agree, and corals will do well even with 0.5 ppm.

I think I have seen much more corals dying from low phosphate concentrations and know more tanks that have been crashed by measures against high phosphate concentrations than I have seen problems with high phosphate concentrations.


I think BRS is a very good and very professional shop and I don't think that. I am sure they are not causing the problem, if there is one with the salt.

….

 

[Duffer]

Just to put this out there, this is not TMP, but redsea blue bucket. It's not mine . Redsea claims it's from minerals and trace elements precipitating..

 

[((FORDTECH))]

My beef is for a salt that claims it mixes clear is no longer living up to its claims…….and I verified it myself…..

 

[poidog]

I’ve been following many threads about tropic Marin pro salt over the past year and this is my findings. I used instant ocean for about eight years before this just set up a brand new 250 gallon mixing station that I decided I only wanted to use Tropic Marin pro after reading how clean it mixes because I was tired of having to clean the brown crud out of my barrels using instant ocean. I decided on Tropic Marin because of the design of the mixing container will be very hard to clean the inside standing 7 feet tall with an opening of only 18 inches would be nearly impossible to clean brown crud out tropic Maren was the only way to go is how I seen it. So being a business owner I have a connection for the 220 gallon bags of store use only Tropic Marin pro salt. Knowing that I was going to be doing this for a long time decided to pick up 20 bags of 220 gallon mix. For about the last seven months I’ve been using a bag a month I went through seven 220 gallon bags. Of the 20. Last month I decided to stand on a ladder to look at the bottom of the container and found it was completely full of brown sludge almost looked slimy the optical sensors I have in there were covered in the slime giving me false readings now back to stating this mixing station was completely brand new never been used and I just put six 220 gallon bags through it and I have brown slime all over the inside of the mixing station. I only bought Tropic Marin pro because it was not supposed to do this. I still have 13 bags left that’s over 4000 gallons of water to be made full of salt that is making my mixing station brown slimy. Now the point of my story is I end up finding this thread and looking at all of the bags and they’re all made in Turkey. I do not have experience with the German made salt to tell you that it was not turning slimy brown but I 100% percent have experience with the turkey made salt turning brown and slimy in my mixing station I have no problems sending samples of salt or pictures of my mixing station but if tropic Marin wants to say it does not turn brown and slimy they are wrong I have 100% proof of this and actually pretty upset that I spent the extra money when I could’ve just stuck with the instant ocean and had the same results . @Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

I also just want to clarify that the brown slime that many are experiencing with the Turkish salt is probably different than the brown precipitate from IO or RC. The brown slime in the TM salt is a gelatinous slime, while the brown residue from IO or RC is a hard precipitate cause by their anti-caking agent.

 

[rtparty]

Just to put this out there, this is not TMP, but redsea blue bucket. It's not mine . Redsea claims it's from minerals and trace elements precipitating..

This is typical for most salts on the market. Red Sea and IO are the dirtiest salts available.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I also just want to clarify that the brown slime that many are experiencing with the Turkish salt is probably different than the brown precipitate from IO or RC. The brown slime in the TM salt is a gelatinous slime, while the brown residue from IO or RC is a hard precipitate cause by their anti-caking agent.

This is exactly what I have experienced. Yes the tmp is a brown slime which is different then io hard brown crude. At least with the io it stays hard on the sides where the tmp slime gets sucked up thru my auto water change system and put into my tank.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

This is typical for most salts on the market. Red Sea and IO are the dirtiest salts available.

I would venture to say tmp has moved down on this scale from second to top to 3-4 from bottom. And Lou or Hans can’t tell me there is no brown slime from the turkey salt….now tell me what I can do to prevent it and I’ll listen

 

[rtparty]

I would venture to say tmp has moved down on this scale from second to top to 3-4 from bottom. What a joke. And I don’t need to listen to Lou or Hans try to tell me there is no brown slime from the turkey salt….now tell me what I can do to prevent it and I’ll listen

I don't think Hans or Lou has ever said it isn't happening for some users. They have said they can't replicate it even with salt sent in from those users themselves.

So far it seems to be iron and/or manganese related. Yet, those levels have not changed in the salt mix.

I believe it was @PeterC99 that had the issue, got a brand new clean bucket, and could not get it to happen again.

 

[Cell]

I don't think Hans or Lou has ever said it isn't happening for some users. They have said they can't replicate it even with salt sent in from those users themselves.

So far it seems to be iron and/or manganese related. Yet, those levels have not changed in the salt mix.

I believe it was @PeterC99 that had the issue, got a brand new clean bucket, and could not get it to happen again.

Levels haven't changed, but it's hard not to wonder whether material sourcing changed. They were definitely having some stock issues over the past year or so, did they change suppliers of certain ingredients as a result?

 

[Lou Ekus]

This is exactly what I have experienced. Yes the tmp is a brown slime which is different then io hard brown crude. At least with the io it stays hard on the sides where the tmp slime gets sucked up thru my auto water change system and put into my tank.

I am very sorry that you are having this issue. Tropic Marin takes every customer complaint very seriously. We are working very hard to determine if there is any foundation, from the manufacturing standpoint, for complaints like this. The most helpful thing for us is to compile data that we can analyze. In the end, hoping it points to a root cause. To that end, it would be extremely helpful if you could fill out this very short salt survey. It really only takes a couple of minutes to complete. This is the kind of data that will help us track this down.
Tropic Marin Salt Questionnaire

If you are also able to collect any of the residue, a sample, sent to our office will be extremely helpful. Our office address is 44 Center Street, Montague Massachusetts, 01351.

Thank you in advance for any of this that you can do. The information you provide is essential in our efforts to help you!