QT Fish Dying

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

Deezill said:
Here is one link
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

I was looking through this yesterday. I had no idea... I thought copper was copper. Would this have lead to the deaths even though they were in the tank for a few weeks already?

tgrick · Apr 9, 2018

Following...I would like to know this as well. Sorry for your losses...horrible. We all work so hard at this and sometimes things just don't seem to go our way no matter how hard we try.

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

I would also check the levels of Cooper. Cooper seems to be very hard on Wrasses in general. Make sure that an over dose of cooper did not occur. The Therapeutic levels for Cupramine seems to be 0.4 - 0.5 mg/L. we have discovered that the instruction are off sometimes. What are your cooper levels I would test them. Ionic Cooper therapeutic levels will be lower the Chelated Coopers levels.

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
I was looking through this yesterday. I had no idea... I thought copper was copper. Would this have lead to the deaths even though they were in the tank for a few weeks already?

This could have been the reason if your Cooper levels were high. Post the results of your Cooper levels. Also check out the chart I posted earlier as you can see Cooper treatments are just Hard on Wrasses and Angels will do much better using Chelated cooper such as Cooper Safe.

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

Deezill said:
This could have been the reason if your Cooper levels were high. Post the results of your Cooper levels. Also check out the chart I posted earlier as you can see Cooper treatments are just Hard on Wrasses and Angels will do much better using Chelated cooper such as Cooper Safe.

Copper levels were .1/.2~. I had done a water change, but the levels were brought up to .5 previously.

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

may I ask which testing kit did you use? There was talk on specific testing kits for certain brands of Cooper also. I think API was good for Cuprmaine though. ultimately a hannah checker was the most accurate.

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

Deezill said:
may I ask which testing kit did you use? There was talk on specific testing kits for certain brands of Cooper also. I think API was good for Cuprmaine though. ultimately a hannah checker was the most accurate.

I used the seachem test kit as I was told the same thing as you. Out of curiosity, is the Hannah checker actually good for testing copper? I love their products, but I don't know enough about it (is it able to test chelated / ionic copper?)

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

Here is what I would do. I would do. I would do another water change and then run some carbon. I would wait a few days to ensure fish are eating and make sure things get back to normal. After a few days I would very slowly bring cooper levels up to 0.4 I would also stop using Cupramine for wrasses in general since Cooper is rough on those guys. I would try a chelated cooper since most have better results.

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
I used the seachem test kit as I was told the same thing as you. Out of curiosity, is the Hannah checker actually good for testing copper? I love their products, but I don't know enough about it (is it able to test chelated / ionic copper?)

Hannah Checkers are very accurate if you have 50 bucks I think they still may be on back order though. Check the site and see. Yes it can check both types of Cu accurately.

HotRocks · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
I started with 4 fish in my 30g QT:

Yellow Wrasse

Hoeven's Wrasse

Red Headed Solon Fairy Wrasse

Japanese Swallowtail Angel

The yellow wrasse was DOA. I waited 3 days before adding copper -- all fish have been eating and doing generally great.

Fast forward 2 weeks+, and within 2 days I have lost my Angel and Fairy Wrasse. Both were still eating the nights before, showing no signs that I could tell of trauma/issue. After losing the first fish, I dosed Prazipro into the water column, but either it had no effect or not enough time to help the Fairy Wrasse.

Right now, I'm down to just my Hoeven's Wrasse and I feel terrible. I don't know what to do.... I just did a 25% water change. Here are my parameters:

Ammonia: 0

Nitrates : 25

Temp : 78

Any suggestions would be helpful.

What type of copper are you using, and what test kit? Have you tested your copper level?

Edit: Sorry I somehow ended up not seeing all the responses.

I have found Hanna to be accurate with all types of copper that I have tested.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

Humblefish · Apr 9, 2018

I agree that copper should be precise when treating wrasses, and chelated copper is probably easier on them. Using Copper Power + the Hanna checker (outlined in the link above) is probably the best option.

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

Humblefish said:
I agree that copper should be precise when treating wrasses, and chelated copper is probably easier on them. Using Copper Power + the Hanna checker (outlined in the link above) is probably the best option.

Thanks for the details. Is this the copper power you're referring to? Is this a chelated copper (Can't see on the product page) ?

Humblefish · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
Thanks for the details. Is this the copper power you're referring to? Is this a chelated copper (Can't see on the product page) ?

Yes, but it’s cheaper to buy from here: https://www.petmountain.com/product...wer-copper-power-marine-copper-treatment.html

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

Humblefish said:
Yes, but it’s cheaper to buy from here: https://www.petmountain.com/product...wer-copper-power-marine-copper-treatment.html

Would you proactively treat Wrasse's or Angels (Genicanthus) with copper, or only if you saw ich?

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
Thanks for the details. Is this the copper power you're referring to? Is this a chelated copper (Can't see on the product page) ?

Yes that or Coopersafe:
https://www.amazon.com/Fritz-Aquatics-Mardel-Copper-16-Ounce/dp/B00OTH6914

They are currently out in which I am quite sure I purchased the last one since I have fish in Qt waiting on Cooper treatment.
I was going to use Curpamine too but I read the threads by good folks like Humblefish and a few others. They did really nice post and
I am staying clear of Ionic Cooper treatments for now. As soon as Hanna can restock the Cu testers I am getting that too. I have all the other testers.

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
Would you proactively treat Wrasse's or Angels (Genicanthus) with copper, or only if you saw ich?

I would prophylactically treat. I assume all fish have everything when I get them no matter who they come from. even if I don't see it they have it. I am skeptic now since I had my 125 wiped when I first started the hobby 2 years ago.
So I observe fish eating good for a week the the 2nd week I treat with Prazipro. The 3rd week I give them a break while keeping up on water changes. Weeks 4 and 5 I am running cooper treatment. The 6th week I observe to ensure they are eating well since they were medicated with Cooper for two weeks.

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

Deezill said:
I would prophylactically treat. I assume all fish have everything when I get them no matter who they come from. even if I don't see it they have it. I am skeptic now since I had my 125 wiped when I first started the hobby 2 years ago.
So I observe fish eating good for a week the the 2nd week I treat with Prazipro. The 3rd week I give them a break while keeping up on water changes. Weeks 4 and 5 I am running cooper treatment. The 6th week I observe to ensure they are eating well since they were medicated with Cooper for two weeks.

That's my philosophy as well, but being new and just having the losses I did made me second guess that. I'll stick with proactive treatments.

Humblefish · Apr 9, 2018

Byronyk said:
Would you proactively treat Wrasse's or Angels (Genicanthus) with copper, or only if you saw ich?

We are living in the age of velvet; and that parasite often invades the gills and kills with little to no warning. You might only notice behavorial symptoms (scratching, heavy breathing, head twitching, swimming into the flow of a powerhead) before it’s too late. So, I personally feel prophylactically treating all fish with either copper or Chloroquine is a necessary evil right now. I hope some day things will get back to “normal” and just passive observation is all that is needed in QT.

Aaron-A2 · Apr 9, 2018

@Humblefish @Deezill

Well I just purchased a hannah checker and chelated copper (Thanks for the recommendation guys!).

My question is now for my current QT situation. I did a large WC and I'm hoping the wrasse pulls through. Things aren't looking that good, so assuming it doesn't I want to reset the QT to make sure no Ionic Copper is left over. What I have in my QT atm:

Double sponge filter
Air stone
Glass heater
Glass dish containing 3-4 inches of sand (For the wrasses)
PVC

Should I ditch everything except for the glass heater and PVC? Obviously the sand has to go because it would hold the copper forever, but I'm less certain about the sponge filter and air stone (ceramic-like ball type).

Deezill · Apr 9, 2018

No don't ditch anything as of yet run carbon make sure all the Cu is out. Since you have a hanna checker I would wait a few days then retry copper treatment and make sure levels don't exceed the aforementioned acceptable levels. I think the big water change should help also run. Also run carbon.
It's like you are starting over with Cooper treatments but this time you are more informed. Did you order the chelated copper or are you sticking with cupramine?