Question about Spectracide Stump Remover dosing

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 17, 2015

twilliard said:
Hi Randy good to see you!
What's your opinion on dosing no3?
I have recovered my sps from near death (from flatworm toxins)
I am writing an article about dosing potassium nitrate and would love to hear your feedback.
I wish you a great day!

I think that there is the potential to drop nutrients too low in some systems, and if that happens, dosing can be desirable.

That said, I think most reefers have plenty of nitrate or other nitrogen sources, and can just back off on the export methods if it does get low. For example, less organic carbon dosing, less macroalgae, smaller ATS, etc.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 17, 2015

sfg said:
Curious as to why so many SPS tanks thrive with 0 nitrates. Prior to setting up my tank most of what I read pointed to low nutrient and to shoot for 0 phosphates and 0 nitrates. But here we are seeing real results with keeping nitrates to a certain level. Did I miss something or am I just misinformed?

Because there many sources of nitrogen in reef tanks (e.g. ammonia and all of the amino acids), and 0 ppm does not mean none. It means different things to different test kit users. There are not many kits that can accurately test NSW levels of nitrate of 0.1 ppm.

Russ265 · Sep 17, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Not sure what you mean. Zoox are golden brown. No other colors come from them.

Regardless, my point was just that the ratios of elements that any creature takes up from seawater is almost never anywhere close to the ratio present in the seawater, and there's no reason it should be.

Yeah absolutely.

Take a gander at this when you have time Randy. Lemme know what you think.

http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00227-004-1529-x

edit-
sorry. it seems the pdf is a purchase yet i can view the whole thing on my computer. meh.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 17, 2015

sfg said:
Well, that just threw a curve ball in my OCD ways. Lol. If only that would have been mentioned in one of the many articles I've read in the past... I may have eased up on my "operation zero" mission.

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

Here's part of the summary of my article:

"In the past, elevated nitrate was something that many aquarists accepted as a fact of life in keeping marine aquaria. Now, with many ways of reducing nitrate readily available, most aquarists can (and probably should) strive to keep nitrate to more natural levels. With the new methods available, a growing number of aquarists have actually had problems from too little nitrate, so maintaining an appropriate level can be a bit of a balancing act."

Russ265 · Sep 17, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

Here's part of the summary of my article:

"In the past, elevated nitrate was something that many aquarists accepted as a fact of life in keeping marine aquaria. Now, with many ways of reducing nitrate readily available, most aquarists can (and probably should) strive to keep nitrate to more natural levels. With the new methods available, a growing number of aquarists have actually had problems from too little nitrate, so maintaining an appropriate level can be a bit of a balancing act."

read over the whole thing... (well i skimmed the export methods as they are inline with what we hobbyists have at our disposal). Really fun read overall. Thanks for taking the time.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 17, 2015

Russ265 said:
Yeah absolutely.

Take a gander at this when you have time Randy. Lemme know what you think.

http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00227-004-1529-x

edit-
sorry. it seems the pdf is a purchase yet i can view the whole thing on my computer. meh.

From the abstract, it looks like they wanted to use a photochemical method to determine nitrogen limitation, but concluded it was going to work out.

Russ265 · Sep 17, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
From the abstract, it looks like they wanted to use a photochemical method to determine nitrogen limitation, but concluded it was going to work out.

i only see the abstract on my phone. i see the entire experiment on my laptop though.

some takeaways were that the cell densities of zooxanthellae were less with less available nitrate and under nitrate void systems cellular degeneration occurred.

really a shame you cant view the paper

hawkinsrgk · Sep 17, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
IMO, it depends on what is in the tank and whether you have an algae problem, and whether you feed organics like amino acids. In most cases without an algae problem (and without dosing amino acids), I'd aim for 0.5 ppm, but each reefer might simply experiment as to what works best for them.

Thanks Randy

I do not have an algae problem. Thanks for the help.

Pete polyp · Sep 17, 2015

Russ265 said:
can i add this to my article? sps paling one?

Sure.

I believe that 90% of people who think they are at 0 nitrates and need to dose are mistaken. Lots of times they use a test kit that's not low range and assume they have 0 nitrates. Lots of people could simply turn off their skimmer and they would see an increase in nitrate. If someone tests at a low level such as 0.25 or so I do not believe they should dose nitrate. I will have to agree with Randy that the corals uptake will not change depending on the level of nitrate. I saw a huge difference within days between absolute 0 and 0.5ppm. To me the "magic number" is detectable.

hawkinsrgk · Sep 17, 2015

Would it be a good idea to reduce GFO if dosing KNO3?

Russ265 · Sep 17, 2015

Pete polyp said:
Sure.

I believe that 90% of people who think they are at 0 nitrates and need to dose are mistaken. Lots of times they use a test kit that's not low range and assume they have 0 nitrates. Lots of people could simply turn off their skimmer and they would see an increase in nitrate. If someone tests at a low level such as 0.25 or so I do not believe they should dose nitrate. I will have to agree with Randy that the corals uptake will not change depending on the level of nitrate. I saw a huge difference within days between absolute 0 and 0.5ppm. To me the "magic number" is detectable.

scientifically. corals will not uptake more nitrate in the column than needed. however....

FLOW increases uptake. i do not have the scholarly onhand but i did read this experiment.

oh why didnt i take the blue pill?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 18, 2015

Russ265 said:
i only see the abstract on my phone. i see the entire experiment on my laptop though.

some takeaways were that the cell densities of zooxanthellae were less with less available nitrate and under nitrate void systems cellular degeneration occurred.

Well, that is certainly what I'd expect. Cell densities will also increase as nutrients rise, which is why corals can brown up..

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 18, 2015

hawkinsrgk said:
Would it be a good idea to reduce GFO if dosing KNO3?

Only if you think a balanced export method, such as growing macroalgae, is increasing.

hawkinsrgk · Sep 18, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Only if you think a balanced export method, such as growing macroalgae, is increasing.

LOL. That's a good one. The chaetomorpha growth has really started to increase since I started dosing Iron and reducing GFO to half of what BRS recommended. Before that it was really in sad shape.

Sorry didn't mean to do a hijack post.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Sep 18, 2015

hawkinsrgk said:
LOL. That's a good one. The chaetomorpha growth has really started to increase since I started dosing Iron and reducing GFO to half of what BRS recommended. Before that it was really in sad shape.

Sorry didn't mean to do a hijack post.

No problem. In this case, dropping back on the GFO seems reasonable.

sfg · Sep 19, 2015

1 week update: my tank is still eating this stuff up. I've been testing nitrates every other day and it's been pretty much 0 or close to it. So since Friday of last week I've been adding about 28ml every other day. Corals are still coloring up at a consistent pace. Banzai is getting darker and darker as well as a few other faded SPS I had. LPS have been consistently puffy since dosing. Next I will cut back on my macro algae. Thinking I will reduce the amount I have in my sump by a 1/3 and monitor the results. If after a few weeks I still see the same amount of consumption I will remove half of it and give it a few more weeks. Ideally I would like to see my tank maintain this level of Nitrate without removing it all. If after removing half of the macro and still no change in regard to balance, I "may" setup a doser.. As a last resort.

More updates later.

twilliard · Sep 19, 2015

Yes your tank will eat it up quick
Macros love it.
You are on the right track. Cut back the macros

Pete polyp · Sep 19, 2015

Once the phosphate is in check the macro will quit eating it up so fast. Just keep doing what you're doing and eventually it will even out.

sfg · Sep 19, 2015

Pete, if you can, please help me understand what exactly will happen with my phosphates being "in check". Is something going to happen eventually with me just dosing this stuff every other day that will balance things out? Hannah meter (low end) shows 0 phosphates. I do run GFO and have not scaled back on the amount since I started dosing nitrates. I didn't want to make too many changes at one time so I know what is doing what.