Red Bugs and Bauer/Bioadvanced

[Charlie’s Frags]

Reviving an old thread and hoping for some input on Interceptor.

Real water volume 250G
One large dog pill, pulverized and mixed in 1 cup hot RODI
Applied 1pm yesterday

Around 2pm today:
- cleaner shrimp alive, maybe slow
- large amphipods alive post KCl dip. No small pods noted in 4 samples.
- all coral & fish unchanged

Do I let it run or start WC and carbon?

I did 1 large dog tablet for my 50g
The cleaner shrimp I couldn’t get out did not survive but several hermits survived the first 12-24 hours along with many, many amphipods. I did 3 treatments at this dose a week apart and still have a ton of amphipods but don’t see any more bugs on my acros

 

[jda]

Late to the party, but Dr. RHF once opined that he did not think that the MBE structure could survive saltwater for more than 24 hours. If you wanted that long, carbon probably won't do much. I have only EVER dosed to the standard levels that Dustin at ORA recommended, but at this level, I just leave it in the tank. I have found that mini brittle stars suffer the most... most shrimp survived and so did most of the crabs. The standard dose is fine against red bugs, so I would not dose more.

Bayer will kill red bugs deader than dead, but it cannot be used in the tank or on stuff with lots of rock since you don't want it in the tank at all. It will kill AEFW too... dissolves them, but it will not kill the eggs. Details matter, but these are the details that matter for Bayer. I have never had coral be sensitive to it. It is a great dip, but I dispose if it smartly now since there is some evidence that it can harm bees and I have lots of flowering plants around my house that attract bees and I want to be as careful as possible just in case.

You can order the dog pills from countries that don't need a prescription on the internet - shady, but. I have had to do this before when the vets were being dumb. eBay has them from time to time, but they get taken down so you have to act fast. Dr. Gs is a good option now, but it was not then. A box of Interceptor or Sentinel is not cheap either, so Dr. Gs looks pretty good to me if I ever need it again.

I have no needed to dose since I started with Bayer, but I gave a local a pill that expired like 5 years ago and it worked for him. I would not throw away old pills.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Late to the party, but Dr. RHF once opined that he did not think that the MBE structure could survive saltwater for more than 24 hours. If you wanted that long, carbon probably won't do much. I have only EVER dosed to the standard levels that Dustin at ORA recommended, but at this level, I just leave it in the tank. I have found that mini brittle stars suffer the most... most shrimp survived and so did most of the crabs. The standard dose is fine against red bugs, so I would not dose more.

Bayer will kill red bugs deader than dead, but it cannot be used in the tank or on stuff with lots of rock since you don't want it in the tank at all. It will kill AEFW too... dissolves them, but it will not kill the eggs. Details matter, but these are the details that matter for Bayer. I have never had coral be sensitive to it. It is a great dip, but I dispose if it smartly now since there is some evidence that it can harm bees and I have lots of flowering plants around my house that attract bees and I want to be as careful as possible just in case.

You can order the dog pills from countries that don't need a prescription on the internet - shady, but. I have had to do this before when the vets were being dumb. eBay has them from time to time, but they get taken down so you have to act fast. Dr. Gs is a good option now, but it was not then. A box of Interceptor or Sentinel is not cheap either, so Dr. Gs looks pretty good to me if I ever need it again.

I have no needed to dose since I started with Bayer, but I gave a local a pill that expired like 5 years ago and it worked for him. I would not throw away old pills.

What’s your Bayer protocol bc I always dip in Bayer and still had some parasitic copepod sneak in

 

[drawman]

Following for good measure. Never had red/black/white bugs but everything happens at some point in this hobby.

 

[Trey]

Late to the party, but Dr. RHF once opined that he did not think that the MBE structure could survive saltwater for more than 24 hours. If you wanted that long, carbon probably won't do much. I have only EVER dosed to the standard levels that Dustin at ORA recommended, but at this level, I just leave it in the tank. I have found that mini brittle stars suffer the most... most shrimp survived and so did most of the crabs. The standard dose is fine against red bugs, so I would not dose more.

Bayer will kill red bugs deader than dead, but it cannot be used in the tank or on stuff with lots of rock since you don't want it in the tank at all. It will kill AEFW too... dissolves them, but it will not kill the eggs. Details matter, but these are the details that matter for Bayer. I have never had coral be sensitive to it. It is a great dip, but I dispose if it smartly now since there is some evidence that it can harm bees and I have lots of flowering plants around my house that attract bees and I want to be as careful as possible just in case.

You can order the dog pills from countries that don't need a prescription on the internet - shady, but. I have had to do this before when the vets were being dumb. eBay has them from time to time, but they get taken down so you have to act fast. Dr. Gs is a good option now, but it was not then. A box of Interceptor or Sentinel is not cheap either, so Dr. Gs looks pretty good to me if I ever need it again.

I have no needed to dose since I started with Bayer, but I gave a local a pill that expired like 5 years ago and it worked for him. I would not throw away old pills.

Fwiw Bayer did work for me, but I had to dip two days in a row and increase strength and time the second day.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

Late to the party, but Dr. RHF once opined that he did not think that the MBE structure could survive saltwater for more than 24 hours. If you wanted that long, carbon probably won't do much. I have only EVER dosed to the standard levels that Dustin at ORA recommended, but at this level, I just leave it in the tank. I have found that mini brittle stars suffer the most... most shrimp survived and so did most of the crabs. The standard dose is fine against red bugs, so I would not dose more.

Bayer will kill red bugs deader than dead, but it cannot be used in the tank or on stuff with lots of rock since you don't want it in the tank at all. It will kill AEFW too... dissolves them, but it will not kill the eggs. Details matter, but these are the details that matter for Bayer. I have never had coral be sensitive to it. It is a great dip, but I dispose if it smartly now since there is some evidence that it can harm bees and I have lots of flowering plants around my house that attract bees and I want to be as careful as possible just in case.

You can order the dog pills from countries that don't need a prescription on the internet - shady, but. I have had to do this before when the vets were being dumb. eBay has them from time to time, but they get taken down so you have to act fast. Dr. Gs is a good option now, but it was not then. A box of Interceptor or Sentinel is not cheap either, so Dr. Gs looks pretty good to me if I ever need it again.

I have no needed to dose since I started with Bayer, but I gave a local a pill that expired like 5 years ago and it worked for him. I would not throw away old pills.

Be careful with assuming Bayer kills red bugs and AEFW. There are many examples where this is not the case. I would never trust Bayer for either of those pests. Interceptor or Dr G's for red bugs, white bugs and black bugs, and Potassium Chloride for AEFW (and everything else).

 

[Trey]

Be careful with assuming Bayer kills red bugs and AEFW. There are many examples where this is not the case. I would never trust Bayer for either of those pests. Interceptor or Dr G's for red bugs, white bugs and black bugs, and Potassium Chloride for AEFW (and everything else).

I wonder if there is a way that we could compile a list of vendors/ people everyone has acquired AEFW from? Would anyone even be willing to share that info? I feel like it could save a lot of heartache.

 

[ScottB]

I wonder if there is a way that we could compile a list of vendors/ people everyone has acquired AEFW from? Would anyone even be willing to share that info? I feel like it could save a lot of heartache.

You pretty much have to behave as if everyone is shipping every bug in every bag. (Hey now, that is a catchy phrase.)

I have no idea how many months went by before I even knew I had flatworms, so every vendor was a suspect: TSA, JF, POTO, LFS1, LFS2...

I don't know about Bayer for red bugs, but I've watched aefw crawl around in the stuff the next morning. They do let loose in the milk for sure; maybe that is enough. It is the most gentle of any dips I've used. Accidentally left a frag behind in the dip overnight and it was OK.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

I wonder if there is a way that we could compile a list of vendors/ people everyone has acquired AEFW from? Would anyone even be willing to share that info? I feel like it could save a lot of heartache.

The problem with this is, just like ScottB said, unless you see the pest in the bag or the dip, you really don't know where it came from. I agree with the statement that you have to treat EVERY frag like it has reef Covid, and dip (and preferably QT) it. I personally do an 8 hour dip in Interceptor, followed by a 7 minute dip in Potassium Chloride. Potassium Chloride will kill AEFW (not just stun them).

 

[jda]

Dead red bugs on the bottom of the dipping container every time using bayer for me. AEFW shrivel up and die and melt.

Bare coral in Bayer - no plugs or rocks but this is easy for me since I only really do acropora. I pour in the bayer until I cannot see through it - I don't measure or anything, but I use a lot, like maybe 10-15%.. I use a look-down viewing thingy so that I can see into the bottom or shine a flashlight up through a shallow pool as I pour it off to see what fell off of the stuff. I use so much bayer that it will bring the temp down and I heat it up first. I turkey baste the frags every minute or two for 15-20 minutes. I grab the frags out of the mix with tongs and put them into a fresh container of saltwater to observe. They rarely slime. Then I pour out the bayer slowly without disturbing it and see what is left in the bottom.

I am really easy on this... if you get red bugs or AEFW, then it is on you and you alone. Some think that this is harsh and do not want to hear it, but from the other side of their mouths most complain about the cost and price of corals already and have no idea what a vendor goes through to get these ready to sell in both actual hard costs and time. The good ones do the best that they can, but you need to expect non-perfection and have a plan on your side. I know that our LFS has at least regular red planaria and who know what else - again, they do a good job which is all that I can ask and the rest is on me.

I still use a Coral QT to observe and retreat if I need to, but I have had no issues since I quit CoralRx/Revive and went to Bayer- that stuff worked, but was harsh. Red Bugs are easy to treat, so I am not scared of these. I am still wary of AEFW, but since I have had good success with some of the locals using a long, and expensive, trip to AEFW eradication using KZ, this is not as scary as it once was, but I want to avoid it still. Coral QT is the only way to guarantee that nothing gets by...and smart management not adding and taking things out of it all of the time.

You can see Red Bugs and/or AEFW on frags if you look close enough. Bite marks are easy to see and the Red Bugs are usually near the polyps. Both can hide on the frag plug, so I remount. Get a handheld loop and a bright light if you need one. Even if you don't mix your dip strong enough to kill them, they should fall off in the water, so inspect it before you put the frags away and re-dip if you need to.

If none of you have ever gotten coral eating spiders, then that is a really scary one. Never had them, but had a friend who you could see them walking around. They just went away and he has no idea what he did. They seem easy to kill with most dips, but they are hard in-tank. They can hide, along with so many other things, on larger rocks full of Z&P and corals that are hard to dip.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

Dead red bugs on the bottom of the dipping container every time using bayer for me. AEFW shrivel up and die and melt.

Bare coral in Bayer - no plugs or rocks but this is easy for me since I only really do acropora. I pour in the bayer until I cannot see through it - I don't measure or anything, but I use a lot, like maybe 10-15%.. I use a look-down viewing thingy so that I can see into the bottom or shine a flashlight up through a shallow pool as I pour it off to see what fell off of the stuff. I use so much bayer that it will bring the temp down and I heat it up first. I turkey baste the frags every minute or two for 15-20 minutes. I grab the frags out of the mix with tongs and put them into a fresh container of saltwater to observe. They rarely slime. Then I pour out the bayer slowly without disturbing it and see what is left in the bottom.

I am really easy on this... if you get red bugs or AEFW, then it is on you and you alone. Some think that this is harsh and do not want to hear it, but from the other side of their mouths most complain about the cost and price of corals already and have no idea what a vendor goes through to get these ready to sell in both actual hard costs and time. The good ones do the best that they can, but you need to expect non-perfection and have a plan on your side. I know that our LFS has at least regular red planaria and who know what else - again, they do a good job which is all that I can ask and the rest is on me.

I still use a Coral QT to observe and retreat if I need to, but I have had no issues since I quit CoralRx/Revive and went to Bayer- that stuff worked, but was harsh. Red Bugs are easy to treat, so I am not scared of these. I am still wary of AEFW, but since I have had good success with some of the locals using a long, and expensive, trip to AEFW eradication using KZ, this is not as scary as it once was, but I want to avoid it still. Coral QT is the only way to guarantee that nothing gets by...and smart management not adding and taking things out of it all of the time.

You can see Red Bugs and/or AEFW on frags if you look close enough. Bite marks are easy to see and the Red Bugs are usually near the polyps. Both can hide on the frag plug, so I remount. Get a handheld loop and a bright light if you need one. Even if you don't mix your dip strong enough to kill them, they should fall off in the water, so inspect it before you put the frags away and re-dip if you need to.

If none of you have ever gotten coral eating spiders, then that is a really scary one. Never had them, but had a friend who you could see them walking around. They just went away and he has no idea what he did. They seem easy to kill with most dips, but they are hard in-tank. They can hide, along with so many other things, on larger rocks full of Z&P and corals that are hard to dip.

It's great that Bayer has worked flawlessly for you, but there are many examples including this thread where it did not work with one dip. While red bugs are easy to treat, white bugs and black bugs are much more resistant to most dips including Bayer, and need to be treated with a much higher dose of Interceptor. Bayer definitely does not kill AEFW. It stuns them and may knock them off of the corals, but often times many will remain alive on the coral. None of this statement is opinion. It is all facts.

I absolutely agree that it's the buyers responsibility to make sure no pests get into their tanks. Using dips along with QT is by far the best method, but if QT is not an option, at least make sure you're using dips that do what you want them to do.

 

[jda]

Maybe this is an older bayer vs new bayer thing, which we should probably quantify since Bayer kills both red bugs and AEFW deader than dead for me. I do have a stash that I got years ago. The formula has changed and one ingredient is different, IIRC.

 

[drawman]

It's definitely the buyer's responsibility in this hobby. I can think of only one vendor who I wouldn't sweat putting corals in my tank without dipping or quarantining (not saying I would actually do this). Most of the vendors that advertise their quarantining efforts are good at marketing lip service. Not saying they don't try they just aren't effective. The problem lies with this marketing and new reefers that don't know any better and get caught pulling their hair out.

 

[aedds2]

Can you use Dr G's on softies?