Should sellers be responsible for FedEx delays?

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Another thought: I truly don’t care what the seller has to pay, or the effort, I either like the price or I don’t. I really get bothered by sellers going on and on about their cost and all. Want to know what “I” have to do to get paid by my company? Didn’t think so

The only reason vendors as myself are "going on and on" about costs and shipping, etc is because thats what this thread is about. It's not something we would normally go on and on about otherwise. The reason it's being talked about is because if there is a delay in shipping we are dealing with live animals and not some inanimate object where it's no big deal, other than inconvenience, if there's a delay. It is a very competitive industry and adding these costs to the product is difficult.

I get what you are saying. As a consumer, myself included, I don't care what problems the seller has to deal with---give me the price, accurate info on the product, your policies, and I'll decide if I want to buy or not---its pretty cut and dried. Again, only reason we're going on and on is that happens to be the point of this particular thread and the question was asked who should be responsible if there is a delay, to answer that intelligently some facts need to be discussed and misconceptions cleared.

 

[siggy]

The only reason vendors as myself are "going on and on" about costs and shipping, etc is because thats what this thread is about. It's not something we would normally go on and on about otherwise. The reason it's being talked about is because if there is a delay in shipping we are dealing with live animals and not some inanimate object where it's no big deal, other than inconvenience, if there's a delay. It is a very competitive industry and adding these costs to the product is difficult.

I get what you are saying. As a consumer, myself included, I don't care what problems the seller has to deal with---give me the price, accurate info on the product, your policies, and I'll decide if I want to buy or not---its pretty cut and dried. Again, only reason we're going on and on is that happens to be the point of this particular thread and the question was asked who should be responsible if there is a delay, to answer that intelligently some facts need to be discussed and misconceptions cleared.

Thanks for a glimpse into that part of the biz

 

[BigJohnny]

This might get heated up but let's talk about shipment delays due to weather/fedex/ups, etc. A lot of sellers have similar sentences as part of their shipping policy:

"We cannot be held responsible for FedEx delays or similar delays by the act of God."
"In the case of DOA, a clear picture must be submitted within ONE hour with the specimen in the original bag."

From a customer's perspective, I don't agree with the first statement and I think the second statement is quite intimidating.

When you purchase something from an online store, either it's a piece of furniture, a fresh basket of meat, or something else, you can confidently expect the seller to assume the responsibility of delivering their product to your home safely. If the package is lost, broken, or delayed so that the meat goes bad, they will ship you a new package. However in this hobby, the majority of sellers state very clearly that they will not cover the loss if your package is delayed by carrier. Since when have we tolerated these policies and how long will we continue to tolerate them? For me, they are unreasonable. I try not to buy from sellers with such statement. A seller should be responsible for getting their corals safely to the buyer's house and live arrival should always be guaranteed. Why should the buyer bear the loss? How can we change this trend?

For the second statement, I understand it. But I see a deep distrust from the seller's side...

Whatever your opinions are, please state them. This is an open conversation and I would love to hear from both sides.

I totally agree, in no other industry is the customer responsible for issues during transit. If I pay for a product, I expect to receive it no matter what. I've seen some say they will refund the cost of DOA livestock but not the cost of shipping, which I get is a middle ground but doesn't make any sense and again wouldn't happen elsewhere. Better vendors have one or two week guarantees so if something goes DOA due to shipping your good, but they usually don't refund shipping either.

Having said that it will never change unless shipping corals becomes cheaper. It's just something that's widely accepted as standard.

 

[BigJohnny]

I cover fedex delays. It happens, and in my opinion until I get the coral in your hand it’s my responsibility. My guarantee is also a full two weeks, not 1 hour of arrival. I know of at least one or two other vendors who have a similar policy. To me, this is how it should be. But vendors have their own reasons for various policies.

It's vendors like you that may eventually change the standard, thank you.

 

[CherryCorals Verified Sponsor]

Yes, but BoomCorals stated it as a matter of fact across the board and thats not the case. Every vendor could insure shipments. UPS offers 3 levels of insurance as standard services, it's not something they invented just for us. It just takes some digging to find out about it. UPS actually did a case study on us and published a promotional flyer to sell their insurance programs. When I get in the office I'll take a pic and post it. Again, the insurance does cover livestock.

What folks don't often think about is the costs get added to the product. No one wants to pay for the box and packing materials and everyone wants free shipping. However, those items are obviously never actually free, the costs just get added in somewhere. Its just a psychological thing.

My UPS rep has no info regarding insurance, surely it exists but she is clueless. We just eat whatever losses we incur due to shipping delays and are happy to do so, it is more important to us that we keep our customers.

No vendor makes money on shipping, it doesn't happen.

 

[Bmezz]

I would wager most lose money on shipping. Not make money.

With shipping AND handling I don't know why a seller would lose money on the logistics?

 

[jda]

There are other industries where these kinds of discussions and policies are prevalent. They all share razor thin margins, consumers who complain about prices being too high, high rate of business failure and otherwise a tough way to make a living.

There are more reliable methods to ship stuff, but who will want to leave their home and head to the local airport... not to mention paying more? Most wholesalers don't ship with FedEx or UPS... they use the more reliable methods. The LFS, who sometimes has spent many thousands on the livestock, takes the time to go to the airport and will pay a bit more in shipping.

This will probably always be the case in the hobby:business relationship for us... business that are well done will build it into their costs and those that cannot will stuffer or die... capitalism at it's best and worst.

The tricky part is buying from hobbyists. I usually will not do so unless their is a discount to help with the beta-coefficient for risk. If the same coral is $300 from a well-known vendor or a hobbyist, then I go with the vendor because they will guarantee and replace stuff.

 

[BoomCorals]

With shipping AND handling I don't know why a seller would lose money on the logistics?

Most of us charge less than actual shipping costs.

 

[Flynsqwirl]

I've had some expensive xxl sticks from wwc and came 3 days later due to a snow storm and fed ex said they would claim it, but wwc replaced for for free. I asked them if they get covered and they said they have to eat it. I told them I size frags I had as were wysiwyg and they said they would send out xxl frags. They were barely encrusted 1" frags verse encrusted 1 1/4" plugs so I was not very happy about that but at least they covered it

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I've had some expensive xxl sticks from wwc and came 3 days later due to a snow storm and fed ex said they would claim it, but wwc replaced for for free. I asked them if they get covered and they said they have to eat it. I told them I size frags I had as were wysiwyg and they said they would send out xxl frags. They were barely encrusted 1" frags verse encrusted 1 1/4" plugs so I was not very happy about that but at least they covered it

considering they covered the delay it's still a good thing, right?

 

[rkpetersen]

There are more reliable methods to ship stuff, but who will want to leave their home and head to the local airport... not to mention paying more? Most wholesalers don't ship with FedEx or UPS... they use the more reliable methods.

Thirty years ago, I'd order live rock and livestock direct from Hawaiian divers (after calling them long distance in response to their magazine ads), and go pick it up at the airport freight terminal. Incredibly fantastic pieces (for the time), stuff that I never saw at any of the LFSs, and ridiculously cheap.

 

[FishyDave]

With shipping AND handling I don't know why a seller would lose money on the logistics?

Cost of shipping are very high for corals and it sounds like the insurance is not that well known based on the comment above. Frankly I love free or low cost shipping. I have been an Amazon Prime user for years, I've gotten use to getting stuff right away for free shipping, but paying equal or less to what I can get in stores. Up until this thread I never thought about the costs outside of my work. People just like free and have come to expect it when shopping online. Thinking about it though, only the bigger companies can afford to do this and it really is hurting the small companies. I guess that Wally-mart and Amazon rule the world these days.

 

[Flynsqwirl]

considering they covered the delay it's still a good thing, right?

Yeah I'm glad they covered the $600 in coralbut ended up with half the sizes I originally had. I lost em recently anyway so I guess it didn't matter

 

[andre zaharchenya]

Yeah I'm glad they covered the $600 in coralbut ended up with half the sizes I originally had. I lost em recently anyway so I guess it didn't matter

You ordered $600 worth corals and vendor refunded you and you still had some
Corals that survived ?

 

[Flynsqwirl]

You ordered $600 worth corals and vendor refunded you and you still had some
Corals that survived ?

One yellow fever looked like it would but didn't. I had a zoeanthid that was fine in the shipment and they still sent me a different one. World wide corals customer service is top notch

 

[Flynsqwirl]

One yellow fever looked like it would but didn't. I had a zoeanthid that was fine in the shipment and they still sent me a different one. World wide corals customer service is top notch

I ordered nuclear halos zoas and they still have me dark mauls as a replacement

 

[PDR]

Ok, so I just read through this entire thread again, and while I have seen a lot talk about coming together as hobbyists to create a consensus on certain policies, I haven't really seen any specifics of what should be expected as a minimum acceptable policy. So why don't we do just that?

Keep in mind these are what I as a buyer consider to be minimum acceptable polices and are only applicable to actually companies, not hobbyist to hobbyist sales.

1. DOA timeframe: 3 hours

I think 3 hours to contact the company with a picture is an appropriate amount of time. IMO it's not enough of a time difference to determine DOA or LOA (live on arrival? ) and is plenty of time for the buyer to have acclimated to temp and open the bag to start acclimating (when double bagged sometimes the bags are hazy and really hard to see the coral until opened, something I will not do until temp acclimated), decide if it's DOA, take a pic, send to the company, etc.

2. DOA policy if arrived on time and accepted by the customer: 100% store credit with free shipping on replacement items OR 100% refund minus shipping charges.

I honestly think this is a great compromise. The seller wouldn't have to take a bath and as a buyer I would be much more confident in spending my money at this company.

3. DOA policy if delayed by shipping company error or act of God: 100% store credit minus shipping.

Again, I think this is fair. Like everyone has said, ideally it would be on the shipping company, but it only seems that is possible from UPS and only to certain sellers. Sure, the seller has the responsibility to get the product to the buyer alive, but being a (very) small business owner myself, I know how much unexpected costs like these can destroy a small company.

This is what I consider to be a fair minimum written policy. Obviously the sellers can choose to cover more if they like, but they also have to have something like this written for scammers/difficult customers.

I think if a number of us could answer these questions it would greatly help the vendors see what is considered reasonable and hopefully adjust their policies accordingly.

 

[Tphill]

That is a nice write-up. For me, I'm not willing to pay anything for a bag of water and dead coral pieces.

 

[tiggs]

My UPS rep has no info regarding insurance, surely it exists but she is clueless. We just eat whatever losses we incur due to shipping delays and are happy to do so, it is more important to us that we keep our customers.

No vendor makes money on shipping, it doesn't happen.

I think it's because it's under UPS Capital insurance, which I believe is their enterprise level of service. The vendor that posted that is the largest aquaculture operation in the US (from the literature he posted pictures of), so I'm sure you have to be at a certain volume to even get that offer with a higher premium. I don't think you'd be able to just add this option to a lower tiered plan or in an adhoc manner for hobbyist to hobbyist sales.

This is 100% speculation on my part, but that's the impression I'm getting.

 

[andre zaharchenya]

Ok, so I just read through this entire thread again, and while I have seen a lot talk about coming together as hobbyists to create a consensus on certain policies, I haven't really seen any specifics of what should be expected as a minimum acceptable policy. So why don't we do just that?

Keep in mind these are what I as a buyer consider to be minimum acceptable polices and are only applicable to actually companies, not hobbyist to hobbyist sales.

1. DOA timeframe: 3 hours

I think 3 hours to contact the company with a picture is an appropriate amount of time. IMO it's not enough of a time difference to determine DOA or LOA (live on arrival? ) and is plenty of time for the buyer to have acclimated to temp and open the bag to start acclimating (when double bagged sometimes the bags are hazy and really hard to see the coral until opened, something I will not do until temp acclimated), decide if it's DOA, take a pic, send to the company, etc.

2. DOA policy if arrived on time and accepted by the customer: 100% store credit with free shipping on replacement items OR 100% refund minus shipping charges.

I honestly think this is a great compromise. The seller wouldn't have to take a bath and as a buyer I would be much more confident in spending my money at this company.

3. DOA policy if delayed by shipping company error or act of God: 100% store credit minus shipping.

Again, I think this is fair. Like everyone has said, ideally it would be on the shipping company, but it only seems that is possible from UPS and only to certain sellers. Sure, the seller has the responsibility to get the product to the buyer alive, but being a (very) small business owner myself, I know how much unexpected costs like these can destroy a small company.

This is what I consider to be a fair minimum written policy. Obviously the sellers can choose to cover more if they like, but they also have to have something like this written for scammers/difficult customers.

I think if a number of us could answer these questions it would greatly help the vendors see what is considered reasonable and hopefully adjust their policies accordingly.

I don’t mind giving a buyer 3 he DOA unless they send a pic of the corals being taken into their house. If they came home 3 hours after corals were delivered they can die on their porch being cooked under sun.