So in 20 years...

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AdamNC

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The cost of equipment has only gone up about say 15-20% per a recent article here. What’s the excuse for livestock prices? I’ll give some examples from when I started in 2006. In 2006 I used to be able to get Richordia mushrooms for $5.00 a head in any color. Now they cost about $30.00 a head. Another being OC Clownfish at $7.00 each and are now $18.00 each on sale at my LFS. And lastly an Open Brain Coral for about $30.00 and now $100+.

So what has changed so much for the mark up other than inflation for these prices? Greed? He who has the gold theory? I just don’t get it. I remember walking out of a LFS for under $100.00 with 3-4 colonies of coral and a few misc stuff.
 
Dude, watch Reef Builders Australia LFS tour. it will make you cry! awesome large colorful colonies for prices '99 prices. Back when I started I don't remember seeing the colors you see now.
 
Demand is the greatest factor I could imagine clowns went up after finding Nemo and corals have increased in popularity due to increase in the shear popularity of owning a saltwater ecosystem and aquascaping is bigger than ever and freshwater aquascaping is practically the gateway drug to saltwater zen
 
I would assume restrictions and reduced populations have an effect on supply, and therefore price.

As for cultured/captive bred, I would also assume there’s a considerable increase on operational costs, and therefore price. Additionally, it seems that there are vastly more variations and colors than I saw ten years ago. Maybe I wasn’t looking in the right places, but I really don’t recall very many “signature” corals, or nearly as many designer clownfish.

But I don’t really have an educated answer or explanation. I will say that I would always rather pay more for livestock that has less of an environmental impact.
 
Commercial air travel did the same to us. Raised prices by charging baggage fees which made less people check baggage. Then with the extra space they could carry more cargo. They said it was all ways to keep ticket prices the same when oil prices were sky high. A couple years ago when oil prices fell to 1/3 of what they were when those fees were implemented....... They did nothing, leaving the fees in place.
 
Fuel, energy and freight prices do make up a lot of the change but so does aquaculture. We used to have a breeding facility here in the uk which produced cheap clownfish and a few others on site but it wasn't economical and they shut it down, now getting stock from Sri Lanka (which is cheaper per fish as we pay the extra carriage as end user).
The other increase is because of the market. You used to be able to buy rocks of mushrooms for far less than you now pay per head. When people started cutting them up and attaching stupid names to them, the prices started going through the roof. To begin with this was just extra profit for the wholesaler with a saw but they have the Internet on the other side of the world where the corals come from, so they reciprocated by increasing the price.
Unfortunately selling small nubbins for inflated prices has become the industry standard.
 
When people started cutting them up and attaching stupid names to them, the prices started going through the roof. To begin with this was just extra profit for the wholesaler with a saw but they have the Internet on the other side of the world where the corals come from, so they reciprocated by increasing the price.

This right here is where it all started.
 
I would agree fuel is the biggest thing. I would also guess that a lot of collectors who may have had no idea how much the corals / fish were actually being sold for now have a better idea. Realistically everything has gone up substantially in 20 years.
 
Around '95 we were just seeing banghai cardinals hit the stores and they were $75; not everything goes up. 20 years ago, the average cost of an automobile was $20k. The average cost of a home was $150k. I make a lot more money than I did 20 years ago too...
 
I don't remember clownfish being $7 a couple of decades ago. Maybe $15 but $20-$25 was also possible. If anything, I'd say the prices for most fish have been remarkably flat in that time.

Coral economics have changed for sure, but that also seems to be largely due to the transition from wild collected to cultured coral (even if you ignore the name game).
 
Don’t get me started on the size frags and “colonies”even worse for you guys in the US
 
It’s the young money in the hobby that is causing the price hikes, at least on the coral side. Until fingernail sized stuff stops selling for $1k+ during a live sale in a matter of seconds, it will only continue to get worse.
 
It’s the young money in the hobby that is causing the price hikes, at least on the coral side. Until fingernail sized stuff stops selling for $1k+ during a live sale in a matter of seconds, it will only continue to get worse.

Can you elaborate on “young money?”

As for the fingernail sized $1K drags, they sell because people are buying them. People spend tons of money on coral. That’s not a bad thing. That drives the hobby. The more money there is in the hobby, the more choices we all have as consumers. Not just in livestock, but in products and retailers as well.
 
Here is what I wrote in another thread of this nature:

"If in fact these prices are ridiculous (that's an individual choice...welcome to a free market instead of a command economy) the only thing more ridiculous are these threads.
It's a (mostly) free country and you have no right to somebody else's property. Do these corals just spontaneously generate, or does someone have to work to find and produce them?

If you think you can provide a product or service cheaper than someone else at a reasonable return to yourself, then start a business.

There are literally hundreds of corals and color morphs to choose from that are quite inexpensive, and all hobbies cost money. If you don't like somebody's price - don't buy the coral. Either wait for the price to drop after the frag becomes ubiquitous in a few years, or just don't buy it.

I've had a couple LFS ask me to buy into their businesses personally (I'm an investor for one of the largest fund companies in the world). When I looked at their books, I felt terrible for these people. The owners work 80-100 hours a week and make less than the nearly minimum wage employees do (on an hourly equivalent basis), while taking all of the risk. All of these eventually failed, by the way.

I would say that in most markets, an LFS is probably one of the worst businesses I have ever seen. They have relatively large start-up costs, razor-thin margins, a lot of overhead, and enormous risk - particularly on live inventory. Quite honestly they probably only survive (for the ones that do) because of the inept people in the hobby. I've had the fish in my current take for several years - I don't kill fish. Same for corals. In the last two years I have purchased salt, two-part, carbon, gfo, and replacement T5 bulbs - that's it. Stores don't survive on people like me, they survive on the person that can't keep a fish more than two months, and the person constantly upgrading/changing equipment because they are convinced their equipment is the problem rather than poor husbandry. And this isn't a knock on newbies...we've all been there. But if you've been in the hobby more than a year, you should not be having major issues. Grocery stores can survive on razor-thin margins because the inventory has velocity, i.e. the inventory constantly turns because you eat everyday. Most competent hobbyists don't buy much product.

Now you might argue you aren't talking about an LFS...ok. Well the coral farmers aren't exactly raking it in either. A guy like Jason Fox flies to Indonesia to pick these frags for God's sake. He is flying, diving, paying all these expenses before he sees a dime. Watch the youtube video of his business...it's in his basement. He looks to be living in a very modest house...and he has a second job!

If every frag was $50 and you had zero expenses, you'd need to sell 1000 a year - 20 a week to make $50k a year. Doable? Sure. Easy? No. And the hypothetical zero expense is obviously absurd.

But if you actually understood just 1% of the supply chain for this hobby, you would be amazed that anyone can keep coral and fish at all at a reasonable price.

You want to know what I think is greedy? The entitlement attitude that pervades society.

Much of the world's population has to spend hours a day getting potable drinking water, while we just let automatic switches flip on our RO/DI systems (draining away most of the water in the process) to get clean water. We pay the utility under a penny per gallon and don't have to do any work. All while we gorge ourselves on food in our energy guzzling houses that are climate controlled. And by the way, I think all that stuff is great - I'm just thankful for it and don't think I am entitled to any of it. We live better than Kings from 100 years ago. And yet we complain that certain corals aren't cheap.

Have some gratitude for the charmed life you lead. There's a lot of poor people that would love to simply have food."

And just to add to what I wrote in the other thread, you have a large part of the answer to your question in your OP. Drygoods prices have had less inflation because of the explosion of internet sales, which allow the websites to buy in scale (and thus get volume discounts from the manufacturers) and still make a (low) profit while keeping prices lower for consumers. They also have less expensive real estate costs. LFS make such a tiny profit on drygoods sales it's absurd. The gross margin (their retail price minus their product cost - this DOES NOT included overhead costs like rent, electricity, wages, etc.) is typically 5-20%. Then they have to pay employees and all the other costs I just mentioned. Do you think that sounds lucrative or greedy? Unlike drygoods, live stock is better suited to local sales - although that is changing as well. The LFS is making almost all of their money these days on livestock because they cannot make enough money on drygoods. So this is a major reason why livestock prices in stores may be rising quicker than drygoods...I'm not even sure it's true because this is all anecdotal.

I don't think this has anything at all to do with greed, but survival. Most of these LFS make so little money that nobody wants to get into the business. I live in a very wealthy and highly populated part of the country with exploding interest in the hobby and we are down to three LFS (that have reef supplies) within 50 miles, down from 8-10 just a few years ago. Common sense would dictate that a business with amazing profitability would be attracting new competition, not having businesses close. My guess is that 5 years from now, my three LFS will be down to 1 or 2.
 
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The cost of equipment has only gone up about say 15-20% per a recent article here. What’s the excuse for livestock prices?

Irony.

Equipment costs have gone up at the same time people are questing for "online deals" so hard that their local fish stores are being driven out of business in droves. What a great "deal". :D

You can't make up higher quality irony than that.

Whoever you want to blame, wild fish should be at least 1/3 more expensive than farm raised ("aquacultured") livestock, IMO.

I'm not sure the situation for wild corals should be much different.... once collected and they reach their destination, almost no additional effort and minimal materials go into reproducing corals. (It does take a certain amount of expertise, which we all know is free. :D)

That said, if you want cheap fish or cheap equipment, then logic dictates that you should get into the freshwater hobby and stay completely out of the saltwater hobby. There are tons and tons of awesome cheap fish in the freshwater side. They're much cheaper and easier to keep alive over time and they school nicer too. ;)

 
All I’m saying is eventually everything crashes in price, when people say enough. People expect the hobby to live on, can’t do it if things are financially out of reach for some. Myself I chose to pay the price for the hobby. Why? Because it’s what I love and I’m blessed financially enough to have a disposable income. But what happens when people aren’t like minded. When things get out of financial reach it dies off because no one buys and it just sits on the “shelf”.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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