So in 20 years...
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madweazl
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I was doing it 20+ years ago on a shoestring budget and I'm still doing it today with a much better budget. As with any hobby, if it's something you enjoy, you find a way to make it happen. If I had to guess, I'd say you find a lot more reefs in homes now than you did 20 years ago.
supply and demand its economics
chipmunkofdoom2
Always Making Something
Not to be pedantic, but Mike's article doesn't say the cost of equipment only went up 15% - 20%. It says that the cost of a system today costs about 15% - 20% more than a comparable system did 20 years ago. Some piece of equipment, livestock, etc are cheaper, while some are more expensive. It's a subtle but important difference.
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AdamNC
Lawnmower Blenny says nom nom
True about supply and demand but even that crashes. Toys”R”Us is the latest example. No one either wants to or can afford to buy from them. So they looked elsewhere like WalMart and Amazon. Why? Same stuff but cheaper. Would anyone here rather pay $100 or $75 for something? We as consumers are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to capitalism. I am neither for it or against it. How many times have you gone into a LFS and honestly said “I’m not paying X amount when I can get it online cheaper”. Same thing happens online too. Well so and so offers free shipping, why should I pay this. Bottom line is if things were cheaper, even a little, it’s been proven that they will sell more. More volume in sales equals a higher profit in the end.
Well I’m going to the LFS today and probably going to pay more for a coral.. because I can personally talk to someone and inspect closely. Even it is a tad bit more expensive. Not sure if I could trust buying online corals
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AdamNC
Lawnmower Blenny says nom nom
That’s what I end up doing. Although not because I don’t trust the seller, I don’t trust the shipper with the weather. Sitting on a tarmac can really either fry or freeze the livestock.
The assertion that "eventually everything crashes in price" is not true. My guess is that this statement is either hyperbole or a poor choice of words, because it contradicts your original statement that the hobby is getting more expensive. I certainly agree that some prices eventually come down, which is why I said previously the solution is to wait for that or not buy the livestock at all.
Everything finds an equilibrium at some point. It is based on supply and demand. Free markets will dictate where supply and demand meet. For all we know the industry's profit could be enhanced by becoming more expensive. Just making things cheaper is not necessarily a good thing. If it brings more customers, then it might make sense. There are plenty of industries that have figured out that cutting price doesn't always work because demand was fairly inelastic so profitability declined.
Any hobby is a luxury, I'm always confused when people think this one should be "cheap." It's usually based on emotion without any rational thought. If you actually think about what it takes to get a fish to you, you should be AMAZED that they are as cheap as they are. Do you think you could go dive in the ocean and catch a Lawnmower Blenny, sell it for $20 and make a living? The guy that caught it probably got $2 if he was lucky.
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AdamNC
Lawnmower Blenny says nom nom
Unfortunately in certain parts of the world $2.00 USD is a lot of money.
Sea MunnKey
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Unfortunately the divers (the actual physical coral collectors) gets paid the least as opposed to the owner/coral supplier 'cause they charge their worldwide clients in the super greenbacks bills. The local divers gets paid in local currency ....
Yes ... the USD is a lot of value compared to the less develop and/or Third World regions currency
Adding for comparison: $1 USD = $3.92651 MYR (Malaysian Ringgit),
$1 USD = $13,762.95 IDR (Indonesia Ruppiah)
Yes ... the USD is a lot of value compared to the less develop and/or Third World regions currency
Adding for comparison: $1 USD = $3.92651 MYR (Malaysian Ringgit),
$1 USD = $13,762.95 IDR (Indonesia Ruppiah)
Last edited:
I prefer in person but i think Im going to try world wide coral as they seem super good same with cherry coral and tidal gardens.
Raindog3030
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Hm, some very interesting opinions and hypothesis here in this thread, might as well add my 2 cents!
As someone who worked in a popular LFS over 10 years ago (they are still in business too!), I would say that equipment costs have not really changed that much. There is, however, newer more advanced equipment that does cost more (MP10QD comes to mind). At the same time, there are other new products that are still relatively affordable, like the Icecap gyre pumps. Now, I have to add, I remember when the Hydor Koralia powerheads first came out, and they are still the same price today, as far as I can remember...same goes for the Aquaclear HOBs, just to name 2 common and popular products.
Now, you all have mentioned how buying dry goods online is killing LFS everywhere. I would have to disagree with that. Markup on dry goods was maybe 10%, we were never encouraged to push hardware/drygoods on customers, because that isn't where the shop made their profit...however, livestock is a whole other story!
Typical livestock markup was between 300% to 400%. Not only is this where the LFS makes the vast majority of its profit (followed by maintenance services, and probably water after that) but it is also the biggest part of the risk.
Our first task every morning was to remove the "deads" before the shop opened. We would easily toss at least $500 in saltwater vertebrate livestock every morning...sometimes it was worse! This does not account for freshwater, but there was probably close to 3% loss of livestock daily there as well, best estimate.
Now, let's talk about the increase in livestock prices! As far as vertebrates go, some are cheaper now than what I remember, while few do seem to be more costly. Oscellaris are still around $20, goby/pistol shrimp pairs have gone up, but not by much. At the same time, some fish that used to be rare (signigobius biocellatus for example) are now fairly common and inexpensive. Speaking of the 2-spot Goby, back in the day, I searched every order form for over 6 months waiting for one to show up, and when it did, I believe I paid $40, cost...this translates to over $100 retail after markups. Recently, I stumbled across these enchanting little devils for $20 each on LiveAquaria!
I notice the biggest price increases are with coral. Best example is mushrooms, like when did these get so popular!?!?! Most of my customers would not even consider adding mushrooms to their mixed reef because they considered them a nuisance...now we have people spending hundreds of dollars, per polyp, for some of these color morphs! Another huge disparate in invertebrate costs are zoanthids. These button polyps used to be super cheap, and as they are now, a go to for first corals. The only named morph we had back then was "Fire and Ice", which were actually stupid expensive! Even with my cost being wholesale, I could never afford the "Fire and Ice", not even the smallest of colonies (before frag plugs too). I was so excited to pickup a small colony at Florida Frag Swap earlier this year for $15!!! The biggest difference with zoas now is the variety of color morphs, and the cost of some of the more popular ones. We used to get F&I or brown...hahaha...so many brown corals! A lot of other corals seem to have changed in price as well, some things you used to be able to buy a proper colony for the price of a frag of the same today, but I think this is OK. I prefer to buy small frags over colonies, the grow out is so much more rewarding! More importantly, the frags have been grown out in captivity and have much better survival rates, very few corals were aquacultured 10 years ago. I'd rather pay a little more for better survival rates, I don't know if that should be considered a cost increase.
So, I believe the changing prices in our hobby is not nearly as vast as some are making it out to be. If anything, I believe it is cheaper to setup a proper mixed reef now than it ever was before, especially with the advancement of LED lighting. Although, like most things in this world, you can definitely break the bank depending on what equipement you choose to use! You could do the same way back when too, don't forget that metal halides and chillers used to be the norm if you wanted to keep any SPS!
Not everyone needs a Ferrari for their daily commute, most are happy with an old pickup truck...happy reefing!
As someone who worked in a popular LFS over 10 years ago (they are still in business too!), I would say that equipment costs have not really changed that much. There is, however, newer more advanced equipment that does cost more (MP10QD comes to mind). At the same time, there are other new products that are still relatively affordable, like the Icecap gyre pumps. Now, I have to add, I remember when the Hydor Koralia powerheads first came out, and they are still the same price today, as far as I can remember...same goes for the Aquaclear HOBs, just to name 2 common and popular products.
Now, you all have mentioned how buying dry goods online is killing LFS everywhere. I would have to disagree with that. Markup on dry goods was maybe 10%, we were never encouraged to push hardware/drygoods on customers, because that isn't where the shop made their profit...however, livestock is a whole other story!
Typical livestock markup was between 300% to 400%. Not only is this where the LFS makes the vast majority of its profit (followed by maintenance services, and probably water after that) but it is also the biggest part of the risk.
Our first task every morning was to remove the "deads" before the shop opened. We would easily toss at least $500 in saltwater vertebrate livestock every morning...sometimes it was worse! This does not account for freshwater, but there was probably close to 3% loss of livestock daily there as well, best estimate.
Now, let's talk about the increase in livestock prices! As far as vertebrates go, some are cheaper now than what I remember, while few do seem to be more costly. Oscellaris are still around $20, goby/pistol shrimp pairs have gone up, but not by much. At the same time, some fish that used to be rare (signigobius biocellatus for example) are now fairly common and inexpensive. Speaking of the 2-spot Goby, back in the day, I searched every order form for over 6 months waiting for one to show up, and when it did, I believe I paid $40, cost...this translates to over $100 retail after markups. Recently, I stumbled across these enchanting little devils for $20 each on LiveAquaria!
I notice the biggest price increases are with coral. Best example is mushrooms, like when did these get so popular!?!?! Most of my customers would not even consider adding mushrooms to their mixed reef because they considered them a nuisance...now we have people spending hundreds of dollars, per polyp, for some of these color morphs! Another huge disparate in invertebrate costs are zoanthids. These button polyps used to be super cheap, and as they are now, a go to for first corals. The only named morph we had back then was "Fire and Ice", which were actually stupid expensive! Even with my cost being wholesale, I could never afford the "Fire and Ice", not even the smallest of colonies (before frag plugs too). I was so excited to pickup a small colony at Florida Frag Swap earlier this year for $15!!! The biggest difference with zoas now is the variety of color morphs, and the cost of some of the more popular ones. We used to get F&I or brown...hahaha...so many brown corals! A lot of other corals seem to have changed in price as well, some things you used to be able to buy a proper colony for the price of a frag of the same today, but I think this is OK. I prefer to buy small frags over colonies, the grow out is so much more rewarding! More importantly, the frags have been grown out in captivity and have much better survival rates, very few corals were aquacultured 10 years ago. I'd rather pay a little more for better survival rates, I don't know if that should be considered a cost increase.
So, I believe the changing prices in our hobby is not nearly as vast as some are making it out to be. If anything, I believe it is cheaper to setup a proper mixed reef now than it ever was before, especially with the advancement of LED lighting. Although, like most things in this world, you can definitely break the bank depending on what equipement you choose to use! You could do the same way back when too, don't forget that metal halides and chillers used to be the norm if you wanted to keep any SPS!
Not everyone needs a Ferrari for their daily commute, most are happy with an old pickup truck...happy reefing!
mcarroll
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We've been trained over the years to think that everything should always be getting cheaper.
Even when it does happen,is it always a good thing? Of course not.
"Penny-wise and pound-foolish" and "caveat emptor" are sayings for a reason.
New sayings:
"I don't have a LFS."
"I don't have a local book store."
Not as elloquent or as Latin, but freaking true.
NS Mike D
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So long as it's difficult to obtain and culture unique corals, and hobbyists have the disposable income to bid up the price of these corals, prices will remain high. basic econ 101
Branding and internet have helped move the demand curve up.
Whyteboy
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The corals are directly related to the price of equipment. If a popular coral vendor has to pay $xxx,000 to set up a facility they need to recoupe that as well as pay for the building rent, taxes, health insurance possibly, salary for employees as well as make a living. The list goes on and on. The fact is if you don’t like the prices don’t buy them. I see out hobbiest for the best deals. And don’t get fixed on names. Stylos are one of my favorite corals. And it only cost me 5$ for a 4” frag At a frag swap.
ca1ore
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Occam's Razor - it's simply supply and demand .... no need to look for more complicated answers. Fish are inherently supply constrained, which is why as the hobby has grown prices have skyrocketed. Inverts are less constrained, and corals are mostly not constrained. The high prices of certain frags are a function either of fragility (they propagate slowly) or novelty - probably more the latter than the former. If you can show a little patience, today's $400 frag is usually tomorrow's $50 frag; patience is most certainly a virtue in this hobby.
FWIW, I don't actually think fuel costs have much to do with the prices - a rainbow chalice colony costs just as much to ship from Mauritius (as example) than a non-descript brown one does. Low cost country manufacturing (aka, labor arbitrage) wouldn't make senses if the shipping costs were egregious.
FWIW, I don't actually think fuel costs have much to do with the prices - a rainbow chalice colony costs just as much to ship from Mauritius (as example) than a non-descript brown one does. Low cost country manufacturing (aka, labor arbitrage) wouldn't make senses if the shipping costs were egregious.
jeffrey holloway
Active Member
Haven't been in the hobby but a few years so I can't compare prices. My approach to prices is a "Good Deal Is what I am willing to pay". Got Into the hobby with eyes wide open and a budget. People look at my Tanks and say Wow what a great set up followed by my god how much did all this cost. I always tell them U don't want to know.
MnFish1
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think of how they used to collect corals and fish - and the regulations that exist today to prevent damage to the reef. I dont find livestock prices 'out of line' - compared with the rest of the costs of the hobby.
MnFish1
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IMHO - the times I've bought online - I would have done better at an LFS. taking mortality into account. And - I have often asked my LFS for a deal if I buy more than one item, etc. My guesss is you would not a good reaction at the LFS with the wording you use above.
