So in 20 years...

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Maybe I'm crazy but I don't find anything wrong with dry good pricing. Considering the cost of materials, r&d, marketing, etc does anyone think they can design an sell an Apex for less than what Neptune does? Plenty have tried, and for half the price one could have an ugly box that cha-cha's the same dance assuming some basic programming and fab know-how, but that know-how is exactly why we pay the premium. Just like a car mechanic always feels like a rip off, but lifting your engine to weld up cracked motor mounts is going to take 3x longer (and your time has value) if one can pull it off at all... We pay people alot of money to make awesome stuff for your hobby because we perceive it to add value over and above what we could personally accomplish.
Don't like it, don't buy it. Now that said, there is a bit of feature inflation that goes on. Just like you can't buy a stripped down plain car these days and you end paying for luxury features, it is sometimes hard to find basic tools to get the job done. For example, there were few LED lights that are both plain and dependable. One had to buy the ramp up and down, 100-channel, make you pancakes in the morning lights, but I think we can credit the popularity of chinese black boxes to fill that void.

The only thing that doesn't appear rational and looks like tulip mania are coral fads (bounce mushroom anyone?).
 
I personally feel that my LFS have cheaper prices online, and in some cases I feel they are extremely low.

With Coral, I bought a 2.5" open brain coral in December for $45 and the thing still looks healthy as can be. I also bought a probably 2" goniopora for $45 and it is still growing 4 months later, which I hope to see continue due to their notorious reputation. I was able to buy a 2" frag of supposedly ORA rainbow millepora for $10, but then the worker decided to give it to me for free, as it was off a colony and was leaving the store soon. Also if you have a facebook group or something in the local area you can find good deals on some of the easier corals. I was just giving away a few trumpet heads for free today as I'm trying to get rid of some of the smaller stuff, and I sell the colonies for a good price. I will also sell good sized 1 square inch frags of montipora for about $10 any day of the week. There was also a LFS that’s about 90 minutes away that posted on facebook a couple weeks ago some photos of coco island clams he got in stock that he was asking $125 for that were about 3.5-4”. I know these deals aren’t common, but they are definitely out there if you can look.


As for fish I bought my 3" purple tang for $125 out the door in November. Considering that it came from the Red Sea and had to be shipped here I don't consider that unreasonable at all as I'm not about to be the diver in the Red Sea dealing with potential pirates. I also feel that some fish such as Yellow Tangs, which can usually be found for about $40 are a great deal considering most of them are (or were) coming from Hawaii. In terms of clownfish I think cheap "basic" ones are still available for $20 if you look around, and when you consider inflation that means that you are paying pretty much the same as in 2004. Goby’s and blenny’s are still around $20-30 for the most part, but I do remember back when you could get a bicolor blenny for $12, which now they seem to be closer to $25-30.


People are also constantly selling equipment for less than they are worth as I was able to buy a couple systems for much less than they were worth and sell out the parts for what they were really worth. That’s how so far I’ve been paid $600 for obtaining all my corals. You can’t really complain with that deal. I think that the cost of equipment might have risen, but people are constantly upgrading and selling off the old stuff for next to nothing, acting as though it no longer works.
 
Here is what I wrote in another thread of this nature:

"If in fact these prices are ridiculous (that's an individual choice...welcome to a free market instead of a command economy) the only thing more ridiculous are these threads.
It's a (mostly) free country and you have no right to somebody else's property. Do these corals just spontaneously generate, or does someone have to work to find and produce them?

If you think you can provide a product or service cheaper than someone else at a reasonable return to yourself, then start a business.

There are literally hundreds of corals and color morphs to choose from that are quite inexpensive, and all hobbies cost money. If you don't like somebody's price - don't buy the coral. Either wait for the price to drop after the frag becomes ubiquitous in a few years, or just don't buy it.

I've had a couple LFS ask me to buy into their businesses personally (I'm an investor for one of the largest fund companies in the world). When I looked at their books, I felt terrible for these people. The owners work 80-100 hours a week and make less than the nearly minimum wage employees do (on an hourly equivalent basis), while taking all of the risk. All of these eventually failed, by the way.

I would say that in most markets, an LFS is probably one of the worst businesses I have ever seen. They have relatively large start-up costs, razor-thin margins, a lot of overhead, and enormous risk - particularly on live inventory. Quite honestly they probably only survive (for the ones that do) because of the inept people in the hobby. I've had the fish in my current take for several years - I don't kill fish. Same for corals. In the last two years I have purchased salt, two-part, carbon, gfo, and replacement T5 bulbs - that's it. Stores don't survive on people like me, they survive on the person that can't keep a fish more than two months, and the person constantly upgrading/changing equipment because they are convinced their equipment is the problem rather than poor husbandry. And this isn't a knock on newbies...we've all been there. But if you've been in the hobby more than a year, you should not be having major issues. Grocery stores can survive on razor-thin margins because the inventory has velocity, i.e. the inventory constantly turns because you eat everyday. Most competent hobbyists don't buy much product.

Now you might argue you aren't talking about an LFS...ok. Well the coral farmers aren't exactly raking it in either. A guy like Jason Fox flies to Indonesia to pick these frags for God's sake. He is flying, diving, paying all these expenses before he sees a dime. Watch the youtube video of his business...it's in his basement. He looks to be living in a very modest house...and he has a second job!

If every frag was $50 and you had zero expenses, you'd need to sell 1000 a year - 20 a week to make $50k a year. Doable? Sure. Easy? No. And the hypothetical zero expense is obviously absurd.

But if you actually understood just 1% of the supply chain for this hobby, you would be amazed that anyone can keep coral and fish at all at a reasonable price.

You want to know what I think is greedy? The entitlement attitude that pervades society.

Much of the world's population has to spend hours a day getting potable drinking water, while we just let automatic switches flip on our RO/DI systems (draining away most of the water in the process) to get clean water. We pay the utility under a penny per gallon and don't have to do any work. All while we gorge ourselves on food in our energy guzzling houses that are climate controlled. And by the way, I think all that stuff is great - I'm just thankful for it and don't think I am entitled to any of it. We live better than Kings from 100 years ago. And yet we complain that certain corals aren't cheap.

Have some gratitude for the charmed life you lead. There's a lot of poor people that would love to simply have food."

And just to add to what I wrote in the other thread, you have a large part of the answer to your question in your OP. Drygoods prices have had less inflation because of the explosion of internet sales, which allow the websites to buy in scale (and thus get volume discounts from the manufacturers) and still make a (low) profit while keeping prices lower for consumers. They also have less expensive real estate costs. LFS make such a tiny profit on drygoods sales it's absurd. The gross margin (their retail price minus their product cost - this DOES NOT included overhead costs like rent, electricity, wages, etc.) is typically 5-20%. Then they have to pay employees and all the other costs I just mentioned. Do you think that sounds lucrative or greedy? Unlike drygoods, live stock is better suited to local sales - although that is changing as well. The LFS is making almost all of their money these days on livestock because they cannot make enough money on drygoods. So this is a major reason why livestock prices in stores may be rising quicker than drygoods...I'm not even sure it's true because this is all anecdotal.

I don't think this has anything at all to do with greed, but survival. Most of these LFS make so little money that nobody wants to get into the business. I live in a very wealthy and highly populated part of the country with exploding interest in the hobby and we are down to three LFS (that have reef supplies) within 50 miles, down from 8-10 just a few years ago. Common sense would dictate that a business with amazing profitability would be attracting new competition, not having businesses close. My guess is that 5 years from now, my three LFS will be down to 1 or 2.
Your points are well taken. This can be a very expensive hobby considering the start up costs before one buys his/her first coral. 20/15 years ago when people inquired about the start up costs for a reef aquarium and I commented 1,000 plus, they thought I was crazy/ rich (lol). I am getting ready to start again and don't like paying 50.00 for a one head frag, evev though it may be exceptional looking, but will do so.
 
I got into the hobby back in 99 and a lot has changed and a lot has also stayed the same. I'm with you on pricing but corals we have today we didnt have back then! I remember EVERYTHING was brown or green! you got super excited when you could get something blue or purple haha! Even then prices where reasonable! What was a frag back then is considered was actually a mini colony.. no plugs it came on rubble rock.. as far as equipment we or at least I used old VHO's the price is still the same... mag drive pumps are a bit more than they were back then but most equipment if I priced from then today wouldnt be that much different.

I still have a "old school" mentality when it comes to shopping I will and never pay hundreds for a frag.. I have a SPS dominate tank at the moment even have some of the names we all love and if I told you the most expensive coral in my tank cost a whopping $40 bucks you probably wouldnt believe it but its true!

You dont need to have a fancy name to have a beautiful piece of the ocean and but if you can afford it and dont mind paying for it.. hey go for it!
 
I dont think everyone compare apple to apple. We need to compare the same species of coral in the 80 vs now. Back then there are no home wrecker, wd ,op , bounce mushroom etc. However rose anemone was much more expensive in the 80 than now. So for the gsp, leather coral, xenia, etc. if someone want a softy tank now they can get most of the coral free just browse the forum people get on the sps band wagon and they give their softy away free. As far as sps back then only green or brown color and now i see green slimmer colony sell for 40$ cheaper than before.
 
Aquaculture facilities must have a HUGE overhead to bare to provide quality merchandise. I will gladly pay for nice clean animals that are having minimum direct impact on the oceans wildlife system.
Hats off to both small and large entrepreneurs who bring us great animals. I for one couldn’t do it.
 
I don't know about 20 years back since I was not in the hobby, but since I started about 9 years ago, I have seen a sharp increase in hobbyists turned "entrepreneurs" and easier access to local wholesalers by homegrown operations. In addition, a greater number of hobbyists/sellers are better connected to the direct sources and have sometimes similar accessibility that retailers would, or even wholesalers at times. Furthermore, both wholesalers and the overseas collection businesses have caught on to the high end market abroad and now sell pieces a higher prices to wholesale operations, which translates to higher prices to legitimate retailers, as well as hobbyists/garage operations, which in turn gets passed over to us, the average hobbyist.

Just take a look at all the high end coral Facebook groups. An inferno anemone or Colorado sunburst used to go for about $300-400 years back, now you see people charging over $1,000-1,2000 for one, and you seen a whole lot more people with them selling them or selling wild caught anemones they acquired through direct sources. Back then, lineage told a story from where a piece was acquired from, who grew it, and the process it went through to be "aqua-cultured." Some of these pieces carried on stories with them as they were passed on from hobbyist to hobbyist. Now everyone with a wild anemone that looks like a CC Colorado sunburst asks if their wild anemone is one. The more personal elements of this process have been greatly diminished. But again, I still love this hobby. I'm just a little nostalgic about the "old" days where an old school reefer would tell me stories about growing particular pieces which I bought fragments off. This experience still exists, don't get me wrong, but it's a lot rarer than it used to be, for an average reefer like myself who doesn't always participate in clubs or reef events, in my opinion.
 
There are hundreds, thousands of coral in affordable price ranges. You just have to be willing to get was popular a year or more ago. I acquired a JF fox flame for $50 six months ago. I feel that coral has hit bottom price and it was time to buy. Eight months ago I purchased a SC orange passion for $65.

Try to not compete with others and enjoy your tank/corals regardless of the hype. I’m up to 100sps corals that we’re all extremely desirable at one point of time for a bottom of the line price. Very few are now selling for less than my purchase price.
 
I'm with you! I got both JF Flame and SC orange Passion for both $20 each and I'm talking inch and a half frags but it was 1. because my local guys know I can grow out corals so if they ever need it again or other frags they know where they can get it and 2. I wasn't pressed to have these specific corals in my system because I have price points on everything so dont even show me anything in the triple digit range at all!

There are hundreds, thousands of coral in affordable price ranges. You just have to be willing to get was popular a year or more ago. I acquired a JF fox flame for $50 six months ago. I feel that coral has hit bottom price and it was time to buy. Eight months ago I purchased a SC orange passion for $65.

Try to not compete with others and enjoy your tank/corals regardless of the hype. I’m up to 100sps corals that we’re all extremely desirable at one point of time for a bottom of the line price. Very few are now selling for less than my purchase price.
 
I'm with you! I got both JF Flame and SC orange Passion for both $20 each and I'm talking inch and a half frags but it was 1. because my local guys know I can grow out corals so if they ever need it again or other frags they know where they can get it and 2. I wasn't pressed to have these specific corals in my system because I have price points on everything so dont even show me anything in the triple digit range at all!

Once you have evvvverything nice, I can understand the struggle. I don’t know too many people with tanks that large. =)
 
It'd be nice to have more resources for reefers to trade with/give to each other. We've all got different frags, its just that too many people want money to help other with their tanks. I've personally given away 4+ freshwater tank setups to anyone who has ever asked me for one (and a few who haven't ha ha ha) (I usually have to go to the LFS to pick up a filter or basic lighting system, neither of which are cheap). The favor has been returned too, the LFS I've been going to for 10+ years has given me a couple of free frags over the years. Can you imagine how much cheaper prices would have to get to compete with 50% of us just sharing old equipment, giving away coral, and not charging for any of it?
 
I'm aware my post was wayyyy idealistic though, it does seem incredibly unlikely
 
Not trying to be off topic, but this is an aquarium forum and there hasn't been a single aquarium pic so here is part of mine (along with my clownfish)
upload_2018-3-23_11-16-35.png
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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