Taken from the wild . . .

[philosophile]

Incorrect those number is based on the pet trade, globally, for salt water animals. Freshwater is much higher. However food based is only roughly 20%.

Then you're going to have to find me a source, because I can't find it.

 

[Alex.M.]

Then you're going to have to find me a source, because I can't find it.

This is based on economics. Try looking for these figured in scholastic articles written by Dr. Lee from China or in a enviromental ethics and global consveration text book. That's were I learned this information while in school.

 

[Sea&summit]

This is how invasive species are introduced there could be something that hitch hikes it's way into your local waters that's home is on the other side of the world

 

[Alex.M.]

I've worked in all aspects of the ornamental aquarium pet trade including retail and more relevantly, wholesale. I can assure you that you are misinterpreting those numbers you pulled from a text book. It is not 40%.

When you include all animals in the salt water aqaurium pet trade, it is 40%. Just think about the snails, crabs and other invertebrates.

 

[philosophile]

When you include all animals in the salt water aqaurium pet trade, it is 40%. Just think about the snails, crabs and other invertebrates.

This is based on economics. Try looking for these figured in scholastic articles written by Dr. Lee from China or in a enviromental ethics and global consveration text book. That's were I learned this information while in school.

I teach environmental ethics.... I'm a philosophy professor. Your numbers are wrong for the pet trade. So again... if you can show me a source, I'll be more than happy to change my mind.

 

[Alex.M.]

I still think you're looking at the number wrong. inverts include shrimp clams mussels oysters, etc. again, this is all for food consumption. World trade in fish is largely for consumption, not for the pet trade. There is definitely a demand for tank raised fish, its just INCREDIBLY difficult to raise fish this way. I have three fish in my tank, two clowns, and a firefish. The firefish is wild caught, the other two are tank raised. I'm planning on buying a tank raised mandarin soon. But again, outside a handful of species, there aren't that many options for aquarists to choose from. That said, would I like nothing but tank raised fish? sure I would. But demanding them, and being able to actually produce them are two different things.

ORA and Biotica are two companies that frequently sell tank raised fish. I always encourage people to buy from them.

See that's the problem, everyone assumes that their voice and opinion won't make a difference but think of betta fish. In the wild their colors are typically darker, brown, green. And black but due to demands, Betts are mostly captive grown and now their colors are vast. Now you have to pay a super large demand for wild caught betta fish. If the demand is there the companies will follow and do whatever it takes to make money. Think of other products like cars, pr shoes or pants or pumbling, these products were improved upon with the demands of the public and companies did it to make money. Same concept

 

[Alex.M.]

I teach environmental ethics.... I'm a philosophy professor. Your numbers are wrong for the pet trade. So again... if you can show me a source, I'll be more than happy to change my mind.

Then you must not be up to date. These numbers came from articles written by Dr.Lee on global conservation of salt water fish along with the text book provided by my college. These figures are based on 2016 information. I do not know how to provide more details than that. If you dont believe me then look it up.

 

[Alex.M.]

This is how invasive species are introduced there could be something that hitch hikes it's way into your local waters that's home is on the other side of the world

True, but that's assuming that the species you are returning back to wild is even capable of having hitch hikers. The crocodiles species do not get infections nor do they parasites in their natural homes. It's one reason why we are studying their genetics and blood for cancer and other such illness

 

[WVNed]

and that is how the superbugs and parasites that are resistant to all drugs will make it back to the wild.

 

[philosophile]

See that's the problem, everyone assumes that their voice and opinion won't make a difference but think of betta fish. In the wild their colors are typically darker, brown, green. And black but due to demands, Betts are mostly captive grown and now their colors are vast. Now you have to pay a super large demand for wild caught betta fish. If the demand is there the companies will follow and do whatever it takes to make money. Think of other products like cars, pr shoes or pants or pumbling, these products were improved upon with the demands of the public and companies did it to make money. Same concept

rarely do products improve just because of consumer demand. They improve because governments require them to, or competition between manufacturers create a market environment to improve the product.... but more often than not, they simply collude to make worse products. So shoes... market competition. cars, government regulation mostly. Neither of those apply to aquaculturing fish, since consumers are often pretty picky at what they want to put in their tanks, and two, competition is wild caught, which is often 4x cheaper at the retail market. I can but a mandarin for $20 at the LFS, or pay $80 for a biota raised fish.

Examples: Consumers demand pockets in women's pants. response... NONE. pockets aren't being put in women's pants. Not on the scale that rival's men's wear. Why? because there is a need to preserve the handbag market. If they put pockets in women's pants, they don't sell purses anymore. So consumer demand does little to affect the marketplace in that sense. Demand only is responsible for increasing production of already existing products, not for creating new categories of products. When new products come out that are good, and you want to see more of them, then you buy those products. But that doesn't automatically mean that if I buy more clownfish, that I'll get firefish breeding because of it..... I'll just get more clownfish.

Betta fish.... already a highly demanded fish.... it is easy to reproduce in captivity, so yeah, you get lots of tank raised bettas. You don't get tank raised reef fish, because most of them have planktonic larval stages that makes them difficult to feed, care for, and costs a LOT of money and time to raise to a sellable product.

 

[Alex.M.]

and that is how the superbugs and parasites that are resistant to all drugs will make it back to the wild.

Again, I talked to my local state park, you know with park rangers, who's job it is to protect natural wildlife. If I could return it to the wild since it was taken from that park. I did not ask to return a raccoon or other mammal, I asked for a horse shoe crab. The return of a species to the wild is solely based on the species, length of captivity, and enviroment it was in. The state park will house the crab for one month to determine health and if all goes well it will be return.

Horseshoe crabs are like crocodiles, they almost never get infections or parasites due to their evolution

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

When you include all animals in the salt water aqaurium pet trade, it is 40%. Just think about the snails, crabs and other invertebrates.

Yeah, I'm thinking about them and it's still not 40%. There are no captive bred or "raised" snails or crabs sold in the United States aquarium trade. ORA and maybe a couple other places do Abalones and sea hares, there are some urchins out there as well but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the wild collected animals. There are some boutique breeders doing some shrimps, but again, it's a tiny amount. I believe that 40% number includes fish and inverts bred and raised for human consumption.

 

[Dom]

It's probably my imagination, but to me, this feels like a scolding.

Few of the fish we keep in our tanks are "farm raised". Most of what you see in the LFS and in the homes of hobbyists were captured in the wild.

If this is an issue for you, then why are you even in the hobby?

I don't think you are an aquarist as much as you are an advocate for the environment. And if this is the case, don't you think your energy would be better served tying yourself to a tree?

I am a lover of all animals. I like animals more than I like most people. Where my fish are concerned, the day I took them home in a bag was the luckiest day of their lives. They eat better, they are protected from unethical people dumping their chemicals and trash into their world, and if they are ill, they get treated.

I commend your position on the environment. But please don't shame me (or anyone else) into changing my practices just because you don't agree with them.

 

[MnFish1]

First of all - no its not a good idea to put them back where they came from - the reason? They may have been exposed to non-native viruses, parasites, etc in the LFS. It is never a good idea.

Second - I think your statistics are incorrect take this recent article from PETA: https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/cruel-practices/fish-tanks/

Approximately 95 percent of the saltwater fish sold in pet shops are captured from the wild, mostly from the waters around Indonesia, the Philippines, Fiji, and other Pacific islands.

If you merely look at the types of fish that have been bred (yellow tang, clowns, hippo tang, coral beauty, some seahorses) in much quantity you can easily see that your number of 40 % cannot be correct.

BTW - The tone of your post is a little off-putting - in that you're seeming (key word) to imply that people that buy other fish are somehow 'destroying' the ocean by buying saltwater fish. I would humbly suggest that if you listed the 10 things that are harming the ocean today - harvesting saltwater fish would not be in the top ten.

 

[MnFish1]

Again, I talked to my local state park, you know with park rangers, who's job it is to protect natural wildlife. If I could return it to the wild since it was taken from that park. I did not ask to return a raccoon or other mammal, I asked for a horse shoe crab. The return of a species to the wild is solely based on the species, length of captivity, and enviroment it was in. The state park will house the crab for one month to determine health and if all goes well it will be return.

Horseshoe crabs are like crocodiles, they almost never get infections or parasites due to their evolution

The issue is not the the crab has a parasite. CI, etc can encyst on the outside of a crab shell - and if it is different than the local strain - it can be dangerous. You may have been talking to a ranger that didnt have a clue - but it doesnt make him correct. By the way - what type of horseshoe crab is it? When I google it one (Atlantic horseshoe crab) is 'near threatened' (not endangered) - and the others say data not available to provide threat level - granted I didnt spend hours looking.

Again on a scale of 1-10 concerning fishing practices - 3 horse shoe crabs would rank -1000 on a level of importance.

BTW - I hope you realize - you asked for people's opinion in your OP - then when you got those opinions you proceed at each occasion to critique the opinion - rather than just saying 'thank-you'.

When you say 'I HATE' when people take things out of the ocean - you have to realize thats going to ruffle feathers in a hobby where (contrary to your textbook that you remember), most of the stuff in our aquariums has come from the wild.

 

[McPuff]

I am Groot.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

Then you must not be up to date. These numbers came from articles written by Dr.Lee on global conservation of salt water fish along with the text book provided by my college. These figures are based on 2016 information. I do not know how to provide more details than that. If you dont believe me then look it up.

Lol if you don’t know how to provide a better reference than that you’re not going to make it through college.

I’m just imagining someone turning in a research paper and in the references section saying “some articles by Dr Lee if you don’t believe me look it up” lol

 

[MnFish1]

When you include all animals in the salt water aqaurium pet trade, it is 40%. Just think about the snails, crabs and other invertebrates.

BTW - so what. 95 percent of the fish in our tanks are wild-caught. So are you advocating tanks containing only yellow, hippo tangs, coral beauties, seahorses and clownfish?

 

[mtfish]

I tried so hard not to post in this thread. But... First, the American Horseshoe Crab (Limulus polyphemus) is listed as vulnerable (threatened) and not endangered. There is a difference between the two. If done ethically, supplying salt water fish, inverts, etc. is a way for local populations to make a living and not destroy the environment. Many more fish die in the wild than in our glass boxes. Many fish (and inverts) can be bred in captivity, but many more are beyond our capabilities at this time. I do not believe it is ethical to put an animal back in the wild that was kept in a glass box, legal or not. There are all sorts of things that can be transferred to the environment that could be catastrophic to the local populations. The risk may be small, but the benefit of adding one specimen back to the population does not outway the risk. I have kept saltwater aquariums since 1976 and have stocked my tanks with both wild caught (by me) and wild caught and captive bred in the industry.

 

[ReefQueen]

BTW - so what. 95 percent of the fish in our tanks are wild-caught. So are you advocating tanks containing only yellow, hippo tangs, coral beauties, seahorses and clownfish?

Don’t forget gobies lol