Taken from the wild . . .

[Paul B]

If I had a horseshoe crab, as I have collected many times here in New York, only because I know horseshoe crabs come from here and I have seen millions of babies hatching here so I know it would be OK. Probably Illegal but that is for another forum. I would not release a copperband butterfly, or any other non native creature here.
As for 40% of of saltwater aquarium creatures being captive bred, I think that is way over stated.

Urchins are raised but most are wild caught. Tangs, copperbands, porcupinefish, ribbon eels and almost all other fish are collected with the exception of Bangai cardinals, some clownfish and a few livebearers.

Other fish have been raised, but not in the quantities to sell to aquarists. Hopefully in the future they will be. But not 40% now. I would guess, maybe 2%

I have been told by many that I sometimes come cross to harshly when on the internet

I am told that almost every day.

 

[russell13]

When I first started in this hobby there were zero captive bred fish. Now pretty much every clown is bread in captivity. As the hobby progresses we will see more and more captive Bred marine fish.

 

[Alex.M.]

I would suggest - that zoos are often the thing that get people interested in conservation in the first place. Aquariums probably have done more to promote knowledge of the problems in the reefs than any 'magazine article' could. Every one is filled with posters, guides that mention damage to the reefs, etc.

There are a lot of people out there that think as you mentioned in your OP - ban taking of all wild animals for any reason. Animals are the same as people, etc. Whats interesting is that when the wolves are ripping up a deer on National Geographic and people are trumpeting about how great it is to have them back in Yellowstone - they don't seem to think about the deer. When deer hunting season comes around - now its all about 'cruelty to hunt deer'.

Your post about not putting fish from the ocean in tanks is a little bit of the same analogy - fish die every day in the ocean. How much power, carbon, waste, etc is produced raising fish in a building - vs harvesting them in the wild. There are so many sides to this question.

Agreed and no matter what "side" you pick, there are pros and cons.

 

[KorD]

Thank you for your input. I have been told by many that I sometimes come cross to harshly when on the internet, phone or texting. When in person its easier to tell that I do not many ill intentions as I am smiling and enjoying the conversations. It only when people inform me that I have hurt them in someway do I notice that I have made an error. I am a lot better than I was, but it seems like I still have ways to go .

I actually plan to do something about it! ( i am not trying to be mean, but I just wish to tell you my plan because I am super excited to share it with everyone ) After I graduate I plan to go to business school and then create a business for salt water fish and owners, where all the fish are captive bred based on clean energy, green ecosystem farm and 100% (hopefully) recycled materials. Ive been planing this business since I was in 7th grade. at the time it was geared to lizards ( I have a uromastyx) but I got passionate about our oceans and aquatic ecosystems.

Sounds like a good plan to have for a business, but from what I have seen over the years... Prices are sky rocketing. I would love to see what the prices are going to be on these fish and stuff.
Once all the building and planning are done...please let me know.. a setup that involves all gree tech is going to be freaking pricey (about triple the startup of a company right now). You will have to recoup all the expenses before sending any savings down to the consumer. Then you have to advertise, be a sponsor, hit all the not so cheep trade shows and so on just to bring people in the door.

 

[Alex.M.]

If I had a horseshoe crab, as I have collected many times here in New York, only because I know horseshoe crabs come from here and I have seen millions of babies hatching here so I know it would be OK. Probably Illegal but that is for another forum. I would not release a copperband butterfly, or any other non native creature here.
As for 40% of of saltwater aquarium creatures being captive bred, I think that is way over stated.

Urchins are raised but most are wild caught. Tangs, copperbands, porcupinefish, ribbon eels and almost all other fish are collected with the exception of Bangai cardinals, some clownfish and a few livebearers.

Other fish have been raised, but not in the quantities to sell to aquarists. Hopefully in the future they will be. But not 40% now. I would guess, maybe 2%



I am told that almost every day.

I agree! here in Florida they breed on the beach all the time and almost every time I go kayaking I see them. I know the park where my friend picked it up from so I felt safe contacting the local park ranger. The 40% is for all pet trade, I think (not positive) but that should include research companies, big pharma, aquariums, zoos, little guys like us, etc. I know in Florida we have horseshoe farms that raise millions of horse shoe crab each year to drain them of blood for research.

 

[Alex.M.]

Sounds like a good plan to have for a business, but from what I have seen over the years... Prices are sky rocketing. I would love to see what the prices are going to be on these fish and stuff.
Once all the building and planning are done...please let me know.. a setup that involves all gree tech is going to be freaking pricey (about triple the startup of a company right now). You will have to recoup all the expenses before sending any savings down to the consumer. Then you have to advertise, be a sponsor, hit all the not so cheep trade shows and so on just to bring people in the door.

Thats why business school is a must. After first I was gonna wing it but my parents helped me to see reasons. I actually think, and am currently doing a study on this, but I should be able to raise fish in green ecosystem with minimal filters, pumps, stumps, etc. Im currently writing a paper on it for college.

If I can prove that a green ecosystem (one with no filters, pumps, etc) is possible then the cost will not be as high. Heck, I believe my fish could have the potential of being cheaper than most wild caught. Plus it allows the fish to grow up in a normal habitat with plenty of plants, algae, coral, etc which makes for a happier fish. The maintenance for water changes will be ungodly but I think I can make it profitable. The key that im figuring out is a lot of plants, marco algae, mangroves, moving water and inverts and not a lot of fish. I was going to post my finding on this website as my research furthers, but I do not wish to tick people off or make people mad at what i found so i probably will not post it.

 

[Tautog]

I’m on the flats of LI clamming 4-5 days a week, and catch all kinds of stuff. The horseshoe crabs are the oldest living fossils swimming, and they swim, usually upside down. Being such a unique crab, it’s very cool to have them(I have 3) in my tanks.
If you keep some, don’t get nervous when you see what seems to be a dead crab, it’s not, it’s a shed. It will be very, very light in weight. Every few months most crabs shed their hard shells in order to grow, totally normal. Dry the shed, spray polyurethane, and give it to your kid for show and tell at school. Live Horseshoes will not bite or hurt you, don’t worry, but having a living fossil in your tank is priceless. Reef safe too!!!

 

[Alex.M.]

I’m on the flats of LI clamming 4-5 days a week, and catch all kinds of stuff. The horseshoe crabs are the oldest living fossils swimming, and they swim, usually upside down. Being such a unique crab, it’s very cool to have them(I have 3) in my tanks.
If you keep some, don’t get nervous when you see what seems to be a dead crab, it’s not, it’s a shed. It will be very, very light in weight. Every few months most crabs shed their hard shells in order to grow, totally normal. Dry the shed, spray polyurethane, and give it to your kid for show and tell at school. Live Horseshoes will not bite or hurt you, don’t worry, but having a living fossil in your tank is priceless. Reef safe too!!!

I only have a 40 gallon, which i know is way to small! they are really cool to have in a tank and super funny with great personalities

 

[User1]

True, but that's assuming that the species you are returning back to wild is even capable of having hitch hikers. The crocodiles species do not get infections nor do they parasites in their natural homes. It's one reason why we are studying their genetics and blood for cancer and other such illness

Try telling that to the people living in Florida dealing with snakes that are not indigenous to their area. Or those in many reefs around the world that are now dealing with lion fish. Or how about those many freshwater lakes, streams, or ponds that people have released fish into that are wiping out the native fish.

The way I see this is that no one posting here is going to be able to change the minds of those who believe to the extreme. It just isn't going to happen. You keep referencing Dr. Lee well there are more people in the world than just Dr. Lee for one example. Any hobbyist or pet owner should not own said pets if they can't properly manage them. This does not mean when they get tired of it or medically can't or even financially the solution is to not dump it back into the ocean hoping mother nature will be kind. For the record I have documented in the case of something should happen to me what to do with my tank. Everything in it none of it says to release into the wild. And if there is any doubt I've included numbers to the department of fish and game along with the state water resource control board. I suggest everyone else to do the same - especially if they keep any potentially long living animals such as clams.

This is when environmentalist, activists, and ignorant owners cause more harm than good.

 

[Tautog]

After contacting my local state park I found out that its illegal only for some species of animals. Most land animals it is illegal but aquatic animals are a different story. Endangered species (like the horse shoe crab), you are encouraged to put it back where it was taken from.

It’s not illegal to collect Horseshoes here on LI, as a bayman, we use these crabs to catch other bait fish for tackle/bait shops, only 5/person/day. And of course the females work the best!
Today, horseshoe crabs are being harvested commercially for the big drug companies.

 

[Jon Fishman]

I’m on the flats of LI clamming 4-5 days a week, and catch all kinds of stuff. The horseshoe crabs are the oldest living fossils swimming, and they swim, usually upside down. Being such a unique crab, it’s very cool to have them(I have 3) in my tanks.
If you keep some, don’t get nervous when you see what seems to be a dead crab, it’s not, it’s a shed. It will be very, very light in weight. Every few months most crabs shed their hard shells in order to grow, totally normal. Dry the shed, spray polyurethane, and give it to your kid for show and tell at school. Live Horseshoes will not bite or hurt you, don’t worry, but having a living fossil in your tank is priceless. Reef safe too!!!

I might have to look into these more.... sound good. Any benefits in regards to CUC ability?

As far as morality..... I'll still eat almost anything from land or sea, so I wouldn't have any qualms about wild-caught creatures.... I like captive raised/grown/whatever fish when possible due to disease control and aquarium acclimation, but again not a deal breaker.

 

[KorD]

Thats why business school is a must. After first I was gonna wing it but my parents helped me to see reasons. I actually think, and am currently doing a study on this, but I should be able to raise fish in green ecosystem with minimal filters, pumps, stumps, etc. Im currently writing a paper on it for college.

If I can prove that a green ecosystem (one with no filters, pumps, etc) is possible then the cost will not be as high. Heck, I believe my fish could have the potential of being cheaper than most wild caught. Plus it allows the fish to grow up in a normal habitat with plenty of plants, algae, coral, etc which makes for a happier fish. The maintenance for water changes will be ungodly but I think I can make it profitable. The key that im figuring out is a lot of plants, marco algae, mangroves, moving water and inverts and not a lot of fish. I was going to post my finding on this website as my research furthers, but I do not wish to **** people off or make people mad at what i found so i probably will not post it.

The thing I am seeing is that you will have about a year or more in waiting on algea growth to be where you need it for filtration. If you are growing the mangroves, they grow slowly from seeds.
What is your plan for lighting? Natural sunlight, Solar panels, wind mills? Options are endless.

Building an eco system that is self sustainable is simple. My one tank has not had a water change in just over a year now. I do however feed my tank everyday, add RODI (about 1.4 gal a day) trace elements, and I dose Ak, Mg, and Ca.

Here is the thing. During the process of setting this up, you're going to hate life until it is actually finished and running properly. There's a lot of testing, a lot of actual money that goes into it, and it all lot of swearing

 

[Alex.M.]

Try telling that to the people living in Florida dealing with snakes that are not indigenous to their area. Or those in many reefs around the world that are now dealing with lion fish. Or how about those many freshwater lakes, streams, or ponds that people have released fish into that are wiping out the native fish.

The way I see this is that no one posting here is going to be able to change the minds of those who believe to the extreme. It just isn't going to happen. You keep referencing Dr. Lee well there are more people in the world than just Dr. Lee for one example. Any hobbyist or pet owner should not own said pets if they can't properly manage them. This does not mean when they get tired of it or medically can't or even financially the solution is to not dump it back into the ocean hoping mother nature will be kind. For the record I have documented in the case of something should happen to me what to do with my tank. Everything in it none of it says to release into the wild. And if there is any doubt I've included numbers to the department of fish and game along with the state water resource control board. I suggest everyone else to do the same - especially if they keep any potentially long living animals such as clams.

This is when environmentalist, activists, and ignorant owners cause more harm than good.

I am not saying to returning random animals to whatever ecosystem is close by. I know the full scale issue here in Florida. I live in Florida. The lion fish as my profile picture is from a scuba diving trip just off the coast of Tampa. Ive read stories of pythons crawling our of toilets in Miami. Its not the best right now. However the horse she crab in question was a native to the beach specifically from a local state park. I specially called the ranger from that park to ask if it was ok to return it to that pack. If he would have said no I would have offered it to my aquariums, or found someone with a larger enough tank to take it. The reason for asking on this forum was to get general opinions on the topic in case the park ranger didnt contact me back.

The thing I am seeing is that you will have about a year or more in waiting on algea growth to be where you need it for filtration. If you are growing the mangroves, they grow slowly from seeds.
What is your plan for lighting? Natural sunlight, Solar panels, wind mills? Options are endless.

Building an eco system that is self sustainable is simple. My one tank has not had a water change in just over a year now. I do however feed my tank everyday, add RODI (about 1.4 gal a day) trace elements, and I dose Ak, Mg, and Ca.

Here is the thing. During the process of setting this up, you're going to hate life until it is actually finished and running properly. There's a lot of testing, a lot of actual money that goes into it, and it all lot of swearing

Thank you for your advice. I knew the marco algae and mangroves were going to take longer, I still have a filter on my aquarium. My goal is not to have to dose the water with anything. no trace elements or anything. I do not have corals since this is my first tank and I do not wish to cause them harm. As for lighting I am using a mix of solar (for half the day) and a LED for dusk and dawn lighting. My goal for when I have my own business is 100% solar mainly with skylights. It will drive up the algae but a good cuc could handle it if properly utilized

 

[Tautog]

I have tried to understand and respect your opinion, but your totally off base here.
You think sea food tastes bad!!! Stop eating frozen. Fresh is best! Saying seafood doesn’t taste good, your just silly now! Or maybe your living under a rock. I guess all the sushi restaurants serve bad fish that don’t taste good? Did you know their fish are frozen for a minimum 60 hours to kill parasites?
Stop while your ahead, or better yet, this hobby isn’t for you! Stay a cowboy!

That's a hard question, mainly because I hate seafood. Not because of any opinion, but sea food doesn't taste good. LOL.

But thats a double edge sword in all honesty. I LOVE meat, and would totally eat only meat if I could get away with it. But I have also see documentaries, like Food Inc and others which make me hate meat. I think, personally, we should only eat farmed raise animals. But at the same time we need to increase the care and awareness that we provide for farm raise animals. But in the US, farms are limited by supply demand and regulations placed on them by state and nation governments.

So my tank has taken a long time to set up and current only have 2 fish in it. I have two captive raised Banggai Cardinals, 1 pincushion urchin, 1 clam, 10 Mexican turbos, and a lot of snails. All of mine have been captive raised. The cardinals were bought online and were a lot more expensive than their wild caught bothers, but to me it was worth it. the urchin was from a friend who didn't know that she got a male and female thus it had babies. My local fish store raises snails thus I knew those were captive raised. The calm i got because my neighbor was getting rid of their tank and was going to kill it by letting it dry out so i offered to take it. It is the only one that I do not know if it is captive raised or wild harvested.

As for my sources, I apologize that I do not have the article or text book name. TO be honest I never thought it would come up in conversation since all my friends and family were with me when I first learned about this. I did email my old professor for the article and the textbook title so I could provide more information. However she is traveling in India and China so I am not sure when she will get back with me. All i remember was the text book was for my Environmental Ethics and Global Conservation class. We had a guest speaker named Dr.Lee from china and his paper was about Fish harvesting and how its more profitable to have captive raised fish rather than wild caught.

 

[Alex.M.]

I might have to look into these more.... sound good. Any benefits in regards to CUC ability?

As far as morality..... I'll still eat almost anything from land or sea, so I wouldn't have any qualms about wild-caught creatures.... I like captive raised/grown/whatever fish when possible due to disease control and aquarium acclimation, but again not a deal breaker.

I do not know if this is geared toward me or not. But from my research, They are good stand stirs, eat left over fleshy food and sometimes algae. They love to eat worms. They hide under the sand during the day and mainly eat at night, though it has been noticed in aquariums that they spend more time out during the day. They can reach a max size of round 2 feet long, and will destroy coral reef in their search for meaty food. They can get aggressive when they get older (after about 9 years old) towards other fish and CUC because they eat meaty things like worms. Males are smaller than females and they reach sexual maturity around 9 to 12 years old.

 

[Alex.M.]

I have tried to understand and respect your opinion, but your totally off base here.
You think sea food tastes bad!!! Stop eating frozen. Fresh is best! Saying seafood doesn’t taste good, your just silly now! Or maybe your living under a rock. I guess all the sushi restaurants serve bad fish that don’t taste good? Did you know their fish are frozen for a minimum 60 hours to kill parasites?
Stop while your ahead, or better yet, this hobby isn’t for you! Stay a cowboy!

just personally dont like seafood. I dont like the fishy taste. I never said anything against frozen food since no one has brought it up. All i did was state my opinion that I think we should eat farmed raised food, that includes sea food. I have been told i am silly for not eating sea food but I just cant get past the taste. I like cow and pig just fine, but fish is just weird to me.

 

[Jon Fishman]

I do not know if this is geared toward me or not. But from my research, They are good stand stirs, eat left over fleshy food and sometimes algae. They love to eat worms. They hide under the sand during the day and mainly eat at night, though it has been noticed in aquariums that they spend more time out during the day. They can reach a max size of round 2 feet long, and will destroy coral reef in their search for meaty food. They can get aggressive when they get older (after about 9 years old) towards other fish and CUC because they eat meaty things like worms. Males are smaller than females and they reach sexual maturity around 9 to 12 years old.

If sand is a necessity, then I'm out unfortunately....... I will look them up though.

 

[Alex.M.]

If sand is a necessity, then I'm out unfortunately....... I will look them up though.

There are some really good videos on youtube for more information plus is shows how awesome their personalities are. Good Luck!

 

[MnFish1]

just personally dont like seafood. I dont like the fishy taste. I never said anything against frozen food since no one has brought it up. All i did was state my opinion that I think we should eat farmed raised food, that includes sea food. I have been told i am silly for not eating sea food but I just cant get past the taste. I like cow and pig just fine, but fish is just weird to me.

Don't want to stir the pot - but you realize that farmed fish food - (salmon) actually causes more ecological harm than wild harvesting responsibility - the parasite, disease burden around the huge farms as well as the drugs put into the food and water - etc damages the local wild fish population. There is also a whole movement to avoid eating farmed fish. So - there's also that side.

 

[roberthu526]

The 40% is including world trade,( so other countires) and it was talking about salt water animals (including inverts). Other countries take a higher stance on captive breeding than wild harvesting. However America is based on money. If people are still willing to buy wild harvested fish then the supply will always be there. In the USA aqauriumist need to start to demand captive breed fish, and companies would start to supply it. But since people seem not to care (this thread is evidence) then the system will never change.

I can’t be sure if you are serious or not. Can you link the source to the 40% please cause I am having trouble finding it.
Thanks.