Taken from the wild . . .

[Alex.M.]

You’re jumping to some serious conclusions based on evidence you clearly don’t have. Five seconds and one google search later and I was able to dig up tons of primary literature on disease and infection affecting horseshoe crab...Please don’t spread information for which you have not yet vetted yourself.

I provided you a link to back up my opinion. Also if my local state park believes in this opinion, then I will support it. They are the some of the leading people on ecosystem conservation. But to each their own.

 

[Bryson.bobby]

I did not say crabs I said horse shoe crabs. It's part of the reason why they are studied in labs. Since everyone is about proof, I'm attaching just one article written about their incredible immune system. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11790537/

I agree that their immune system is incredible. However, just because they’re immune to most diseases doesn’t mean that they cannot carry a disease from your friends tank. For instance, ick can be carried on live rock, snail shells, etc.

 

[redfishbluefish]

A number of posts have been removed because they contained insults or name calling. Please, there will be no insulting or name calling. We can disagree, but do it without insulting other members.

 

[Alex.M.]

I agree that their immune system is incredible. However, just because they’re immune to most diseases doesn’t mean that they cannot carry a disease from your friends tank. For instance, ick can be carried on a live rock.

I know that, it's why the rangers plan on Q.T the horseshoe crab for one month before returning it. If it is sick it will get treatment. I do not agree with returning animals to the wild unless you are a trained profession like the state park rangers. They are not immune to hitch hickers like barnacles either, but they are immune to other internal parasites or illnesses which is stated in the article I provided. But you are correct they can get external hitch hikers. I have not read of horse shoe crabs getting ich but I do know that algae and barnacles.

 

[Bryson.bobby]

Ah, gotcha. Didn’t realize the rangers were going to quarantine it before letting it back into the wild.

 

[bigcheese]

After I graduate I plan to go to business school and then create a business for salt water fish and owners, where all the fish are captive bred based on clean energy, green ecosystem farm and 100% (hopefully) recycled materials. Ive been planing this business since I was in 7th grade.

Ah, the exuberance of youth. I want to say, I sincerely wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. If you're truly serious and this passionate, then by all means pursue that with all the means you can muster. If it's sustainable, then I'll gladly be your first customer, no joke.

Maybe you'd be willing to take some advice, since it's been tried before.

• Learn the ropes by working at a successful aquaculture farm. There are quite a few out there, but most are geared toward the foodchain, not ornamentals. ORA might be a good start.
  
• Try building your farm in the ocean or with direct flow from the ocean. You'll save on chemicals, electricity and pumps. Carbon-neutral.
  
• Use natural sunlight. You can't get much greener than that.
• Build your artificial reef out of reclaimed concrete, limestone and volcanic pumice, score one for recycling.
• Give away at least 25% of everything you culture to reef reclamation projects... see, you're doing stuff for the greater good, too.
• Hire local labor. Most of the places this stuff comes from are impoverished and you'd be doing a lot of good for the community there.
  
• Once you get things going, chances are someone in a government will try and take it away. Bribe them early and often to not do that. It will cut into your profit margin.
  
• You will need a ton of luck and / or religion. Hurricanes / Typhoons / Earthquakes / El Nino can wipe out your entire investment in a day. Take a page from R. Lee Ermey in "Siege of Firebase Gloria"- there is no such thing as an atheist in a combat zone.
  
• You're going to need lots of seed capital. Make friends with rich people. Especially ones with more money than brains and an overdeveloped sense of environmental consience.

You may be able to kill two birds with one stone.. present your business plan to Richard Branson. He's got a private island, so no bribery needed for the above... just a lot of rent money. (You will have to name all your new cool color morphs as "Virgin" X, like the "Virgin Atlantic Super Whizbang Ultra Rainbow Acro", but totally worth it for two grand a frag.)
If you've stuck with me this far, look up Walt Smith Fiji International. Absolutely uplifting in how he succeeded in doing just what you want to do, but simultaneously the most tragically sad example of ignorance, government overreach and special interest money that destroyed his creation.

As an alternate career path, you may want to consider becoming a lawyer instead, fighting for those that are doing the right thing and helping to guide environmental regulations that are effective and based on proven, reproducible, non-biased science.

 

[Alex.M.]

Ah, the exuberance of youth. I want to say, I sincerely wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. If you're truly serious and this passionate, then by all means pursue that with all the means you can muster. If it's sustainable, then I'll gladly be your first customer, no joke.

Maybe you'd be willing to take some advice, since it's been tried before.

• Learn the ropes by working at a successful aquaculture farm. There are quite a few out there, but most are geared toward the foodchain, not ornamentals. ORA might be a good start.
  
• Try building your farm in the ocean or with direct flow from the ocean. You'll save on chemicals, electricity and pumps. Carbon-neutral.
  
• Use natural sunlight. You can't get much greener than that.
• Build your artificial reef out of reclaimed concrete, limestone and volcanic pumice, score one for recycling.
• Give away at least 25% of everything you culture to reef reclamation projects... see, you're doing stuff for the greater good, too.
• Hire local labor. Most of the places this stuff comes from are impoverished and you'd be doing a lot of good for the community there.
  
• Once you get things going, chances are someone in a government will try and take it away. Bribe them early and often to not do that. It will cut into your profit margin.
  
• You will need a ton of luck and / or religion. Hurricanes / Typhoons / Earthquakes / El Nino can wipe out your entire investment in a day. Take a page from R. Lee Ermey in "Siege of Firebase Gloria"- there is no such thing as an atheist in a combat zone.
  
• You're going to need lots of seed capital. Make friends with rich people. Especially ones with more money than brains and an overdeveloped sense of environmental consience.

You may be able to kill two birds with one stone.. present your business plan to Richard Branson. He's got a private island, so no bribery needed for the above... just a lot of rent money. (You will have to name all your new cool color morphs as "Virgin" X, like the "Virgin Atlantic Super Whizbang Ultra Rainbow Acro", but totally worth it for two grand a frag.)
If you've stuck with me this far, look up Walt Smith Fiji International. Absolutely uplifting in how he succeeded in doing just what you want to do, but simultaneously the most tragically sad example of ignorance, government overreach and special interest money that destroyed his creation.

As an alternate career path, you may want to consider becoming a lawyer instead, fighting for those that are doing the right thing and helping to guide environmental regulations that are effective and based on proven, reproducible, non-biased science.

Thank you so much for your advice! It's funny you say lawyer because my current internship is at my state government office. Lol. My dad always taught me action first then break the system. Aka show people it's possible and then change the laws. I've studied the walt Smith case. I keep restudying him so I do not make the same mistakes. I know my goals are huge and seem idealistic, but I put hope and faith in my knowledge and a good amount of cussing. If I'm wrong then I'll be wrong and move on, but I doubt that I'll come out empty handed even if I am wrong. All failures are worthy of success in the right light. Thank you for your support and I will totally name my first new new morph after you. Lol

 

[Alex.M.]

Ah, gotcha. Didn’t realize the rangers were going to quarantine it before letting it back into the wild.

It's ok, the heat of a good healthy debate makes us all skip over information. I'm also guilty of not typing clear enough so that there was no miscommunication. So the mistake is also on me.

 

[Lissa1987]

So I didn't read all of the comments so i cannot comment on what others have said, but here is my 2 cents. I live on Tampa Bay (south shore) Releasing the crab back to its environment should be fine. (you did the right thing by contacting fish and wildlife- if only more people were consciencious before releasing animals. I completely disagree with you on your wild caught opinion. If you were to ask the organisms living in my wild caught Tampa Bay aquarium, Im sure they would tell you they have a much batter life...Food is delivered regularly (they even beg for it after a couple days in the tank) My skeleton shrimp are reproducing like crazy...They nave a much easier life now where they are fed, no predators and can be treated if anything happens to them.

 

[Peter Clark]

As many have said here, returning it is a bad idea. I've spoken to many marine biologists specifically on this topic (general marine life) and the main concern is bacteria, viruses, etc that may not be infecting the animal but on them. Our tanks are a mix of life from all over the world, so would be horrible to release any of that microscopic life.

Park rangers are not marine biologists normally. They are used to stopping people with them in their car while leaving the park. Something held in a reef tank is not something they would be experts on and I would not trust their judgement.

My personal recommendation is to contact a local aquarium or natural science museum. I used to assist at a natural science museum that did house many horseshoe crabs. They had them of all different sizes. If it were safe to release one, they would know and would work with local authorities to do so. If it was not safe, it could then live in one of their large tanks with experts taking care of it. And since they would often get horseshoe crabs on purpose, this would be saving another from being caught just for them.

Lastly, one thing I remember the marine biologist specifically mentioning was that baby horseshoe crabs had a very low survival rate.

 

[Lissa1987]

A number of posts have been removed because they contained insults or name calling. Please, there will be no insulting or name calling. We can disagree, but do it without insulting other members.

Thank you for enforcing this... That is why I stay with Reef2reef and not other forums...

 

[Alex.M.]

So I didn't read all of the comments so i cannot comment on what others have said, but here is my 2 cents. I live on Tampa Bay (south shore) Releasing the crap back to its environment should be fine. (you did the right thing by contacting fish and wildlife- if only more people were consciencious before releasing animals. I completely disagree with you on your wild caught opinion. If you were to ask the organisms living in my wild caught Tampa Bay aquarium, Im sure they would tell you they have a much batter life...Food is delivered regularly (they even beg for it after a couple days in the tank) My skeleton shrimp are reproducing like crazy...They nave a much easier life now where they are fed, no predators and can be treated if anything happens to them.

Omg I live in Tampa bay as well . . Well in New Port Richey! Small world. And thank you for being polite on your opinion. I disagree with wild caught but that's ok. I understand that the pet trade isn't capable of handling all captive bred fish yet, but hopefully that will change soon! I would love to see your tank if you would be ok sharing it! I'm modeling my tank like our local mangroves reefs! But my fish aren't Tampa bay themed. Just the rocks, sand and mangroves.

 

[Alex.M.]

As many have said here, returning it is a bad idea. I've spoken to many marine biologists specifically on this topic (general marine life) and the main concern is bacteria, viruses, etc that may not be infecting the animal but on them. Our tanks are a mix of life from all over the world, so would be horrible to release any of that microscopic life.

Park rangers are not marine biologists normally. They are used to stopping people with them in their car while leaving the park. Something held in a reef tank is not something they would be experts on and I would not trust their judgement.

My personal recommendation is to contact a local aquarium or natural science museum. I used to assist at a natural science museum that did house many horseshoe crabs. They had them of all different sizes. If it were safe to release one, they would know and would work with local authorities to do so. If it was not safe, it could then live in one of their large tanks with experts taking care of it. And since they would often get horseshoe crabs on purpose, this would be saving another from being caught just for them.

Lastly, one thing I remember the marine biologist specifically mentioning was that baby horseshoe crabs had a very low survival rate.

Thank you for your opinion. However the rangers are expecting the horseshoe crab tomorrow and I do not need to be hunted down by local police chasing after me because it's illegal to take horseshoe crabs from the wild. I will talk to the rangers tomorrow and see if another method is better. I know they are protected due to over harvesting in Flroida.

 

[Lissa1987]

Omg I live in Tampa bay as well . . Well in New Port Richey! Small world. And thank you for being polite on your opinion. I disagree with wild caught but that's ok. I understand that the pet trade isn't capable of handling all captive bred fish yet, but hopefully that will change soon! I would love to see your tank if you would be ok sharing it! I'm modeling my tank like our local mangroves reefs! But my fish aren't Tampa bay themed. Just the rocks, sand and mangroves.

Ill take a pic...but its not pretty...just a mixture of things i have found/caught that I thought were reasonable to keep without putting them at risk...and although this is debatable, if at anytime during their acclimation to the tank, i feel like they are not happy, i will put them back where they came from (within a few days of when i catch them so they don't lose their instinct to find food)... I am in Apollo beach. I haven't been able so far to get any of my mangrove pods to grow (cant collect the mature ones).

 

[Lissa1987]

Ill take a pic...but its not pretty...just a mixture of things i have found/caught that I thought were reasonable to keep without putting them at risk...and although this is debatable, if at anytime during their acclimation to the tank, i feel like they are not happy, i will put them back where they came from (within a few days of when i catch them so they don't lose their instinct to find food)... I am in Apollo beach. I haven't been able so far to get any of my mangrove pods to grow (cant collect the mature ones).

actually ill try to post a video because the one fish i have in there now eats like a cow (I have named him manny after the sea cow manatees) and its food time lol

 

[Alex.M.]

Ill take a pic...but its not pretty...just a mixture of things i have found/caught that I thought were reasonable to keep without putting them at risk...and although this is debatable, if at anytime during their acclimation to the tank, i feel like they are not happy, i will put them back where they came from (within a few days of when i catch them so they don't lose their instinct to find food)... I am in Apollo beach. I haven't been able so far to get any of my mangrove pods to grow (cant collect the mature ones).

I grow red mangroves at my university, which my club has permission to plant to help rebuild our mangrove forest. I can mail some to you! They are amazing in tanks but do need some TLC. You have to wipe the salt off their leaves daily. They do grow slower in saltwater, if you have a fresh water/black water or blackish water tank they can also grow well there. My betta has one in its tank! Totally helps with calcium and other trace elements of you watch those.

That sounds like an awesome tank Cant wait to see it!

 

[bigcheese]

My dad always taught me action first then break the system. Aka show people it's possible and then change the laws.

I learned that first you need to understand the law and its context- why it was put in place initially. Unless the rule holds no merit, then simply demonstrating an exception to the rule will not force change. It needs to be viewed from all relevant perspectives and its merit determined for each.
Case in point about returning the crab to the wild, the law is there to protect the ecosystem, not necessarily the individual animal. Without understanding this context, an outsider may view the law as stupid and call for repeal. It's only through empathy to differing views and healthy debate that we can hope to fix the system.

I know my goals are huge and seem idealistic, but I put hope and faith in my knowledge and a good amount of cussing.

Again, staying way offtopic to lighten up the mood in here... cussing is good for the soul. I firmly believe that.

FWIW, I have second-hand knowledge that Sir Richard is legitimately cool with funding moonshot projects like this. I meant that part of the post to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, but it's mostly spot on. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-get-richard-branson-invest-your-venture-daniel-jordi

 

[Lissa1987]

Ok, so sorry video is terrible. I was trying to get some shots of the little guys in there (copepods, skeleton shrimp, snail, who knows what else) but they were hard to get. I don't run a filter on the tank because all of the small guys so just a bunch of air stones, a fan and lights...plus frequent water changes if necessary but the macro algae does most of the work.

 

[Lissa1987]

Ok, so sorry video is terrible. I was trying to get some shots of the little guys in there (copepods, skeleton shrimp, snail, who knows what else) but they were hard to get. I don't run a filter on the tank because all of the small guys so just a bunch of air stones, a fan and lights...plus frequent water changes if necessary but the macro algae does most of the work.

Yes, a lot of food for one fish but the skeleton shrimp eat them as well.

 

[Alex.M.]

I learned that first you need to understand the law and its context- why it was put in place initially. Unless the rule holds no merit, then simply demonstrating an exception to the rule will not force change. It needs to be viewed from all relevant perspectives and its merit determined for each.
Case in point about returning the crab to the wild, the law is there to protect the ecosystem, not necessarily the individual animal. Without understanding this context, an outsider may view the law as stupid and call for repeal. It's only through empathy to differing views and healthy debate that we can hope to fix the system.



Again, staying way offtopic to lighten up the mood in here... cussing is good for the soul. I firmly believe that.

FWIW, I have second-hand knowledge that Sir Richard is legitimately cool with funding moonshot projects like this. I meant that part of the post to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, but it's mostly spot on. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-get-richard-branson-invest-your-venture-daniel-jordi

No no, I completely know that my ideas are a bit like shooting the moon but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained. plus my grandma says criticism is just a form of flattery. Didnt understand that till I got older. For the longest time I thought she was just a crazy old bat with a switch. Lol

I do realize that in order to change laws you must study them, and once you think you understand it, you need to learn about how it is connected. Because in today's world everything is connect. And once you understand that, your only 20% done researching that law. Lol my sister went to Stetson law school and just from watching her study and debate was amazing but so so difficult. So many laws have tiny pieces of other laws in them that it's easy to skip something and have the hammer of the law coming down on you.

I will totally look into that link. Thank you for providing it. I was actually beginning to research how to get sponsors to help me start the business plus board members. Thank you again

And cussing does wonders soul. It's like the cheap version of chicken soup for the soul lol