Taken from the wild . . .

[MnFish1]

This is based on economics. Try looking for these figured in scholastic articles written by Dr. Lee from China or in a enviromental ethics and global consveration text book. That's were I learned this information while in school.

Btw - I clicked on the link - which is to the website for Scholastics - there are no results when you search for "Dr. Lee". I did find this link that might help:

https://shop.scholastic.com/parent-ecommerce/books/my-encyclopedia-of-the-sea-9780531225974.html

 

[Alex.M.]

Lol if you don’t know how to provide a better reference than that you’re not going to make it through college.

The issue is not the the crab has a parasite. CI, etc can encyst on the outside of a crab shell - and if it is different than the local strain - it can be dangerous. You may have been talking to a ranger that didnt have a clue - but it doesnt make him correct. By the way - what type of horseshoe crab is it? When I google it one (Atlantic horseshoe crab) is 'near threatened' (not endangered) - and the others say data not available to provide threat level - granted I didnt spend hours looking.

Again on a scale of 1-10 concerning fishing practices - 3 horse shoe crabs would rank -1000 on a level of importance.

BTW - I hope you realize - you asked for people's opinion in your OP - then when you got those opinions you proceed at each occasion to critique the opinion - rather than just saying 'thank-you'.

When you say 'I HATE' when people take things out of the ocean - you have to realize thats going to ruffle feathers in a hobby where (contrary to your textbook that you remember), most of the stuff in our aquariums has come from the wild.

Yeah, I'm thinking about them and it's still not 40%. There are no captive bred or "raised" snails or crabs sold in the United States aquarium trade. ORA and maybe a couple other places do Abalones and sea hares, there are some urchins out there as well but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the wild collected animals. There are some boutique breeders doing some shrimps, but again, it's a tiny amount. I believe that 40% number includes fish and inverts bred and raised for human consumption.

It's probably my imagination, but to me, this feels like a scolding.

Few of the fish we keep in our tanks are "farm raised". Most of what you see in the LFS and in the homes of hobbyists were captured in the wild.

If this is an issue for you, then why are you even in the hobby?

I don't think you are an aquarist as much as you are an advocate for the environment. And if this is the case, don't you think your energy would be better served tying yourself to a tree?

I am a lover of all animals. I like animals more than I like most people. Where my fish are concerned, the day I took them home in a bag was the luckiest day of their lives. They eat better, they are protected from unethical people dumping their chemicals and trash into their world, and if they are ill, they get treated.

I commend your position on the environment. But please don't shame me (or anyone else) into changing my practices just because you don't agree with them.

To everyone who disagrees with me,

I apologize if it seem s like I am scolding or being mean to anyone. That was not my intention. I had posted this question after I contacted my local state park Florida wildlife center and neither answered so I had figured the best idea was to go onto this site because this forum and its users are amazing and willing to offer their opinions. After about 5 mintues of posting this, the state park called me back. I asked them numerous questions, Such as if it was safe to return, should I put it in a Q.tank, and other questions that I have seen here. All the response I gave came from the Park rangers and thus I would inform people so they could learn just as I did. I realize that now, it may come off as scolding people but that was not my intention as stated above. I apologize.

As for the debate on captive bred fish, I will not change my opinion nor am I asking you to change yours. Would I like for all aquarium fish to be captive raised. well duh, but in my OPINION that will not happen for awhile no matter how much people like me push. I have also cited my sources roughly 3 times on this forum thus I am not going to keep stating them. You can take my statements or leave it. In the end you are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine.

I am in this hobby for my own reason, just as you are in yours. I am not an environmentalist but a conservationist. There is a difference. I do not agree with tying my self to a tree to make a point, and would prefer to fight laws and governments to help our planet.

Thank you and have a good day.

 

[serwobow]

Yeah, I'm thinking about them and it's still not 40%. There are no captive bred or "raised" snails or crabs sold in the United States aquarium trade. ORA and maybe a couple other places do Abalones and sea hares, there are some urchins out there as well but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the wild collected animals. There are some boutique breeders doing some shrimps, but again, it's a tiny amount. I believe that 40% number includes fish and inverts bred and raised for human consumption.

I just got a shipment of mini conch snails from indo pacific farms that are captive raised (and are breeding like crazy in my tank). I agree that this doesn't account for a large percentage of the snails in the trade, but there are some!

 

[KorD]

I do not buy from my LFS. I only buy a fish if I can confirm that it is captive grown. Its more expensive but worth it if Im not part of the problem with over fishing, and ecosystem degradation of our oceans.

I have a gathering license for Texas and the waters it governs. You are going to hate me because I have a Texas only tank. All the critters were gathered from the gulf.

Interesting thing is that when we catch and hold until we release when needed.. my club has helped replenish by breading and releasing.

This hobby has helped the reefs more then you know. Yes a lot of stuff comes from the ocean, but there are people out there that farm in their tanks and get corals back into the reef system.
A lot of the frags are fragged from the sea, they are not just pulled to pull and sell them. (Granted some third parties do that) this is where research of where your critters come from that is helpful.

Yes I pull from the sea, and once it gets big enough, we dive and return it to make more on the reefs.

 

[Alex.M.]

I have a gathering license for Texas and the waters it governs. You are going to hate me because I have a Texas only tank. All the critters were gathered from the gulf.

Interesting thing is that when we catch and hold until we release when needed.. my club has helped replenish by breading and releasing.

This hobby has helped the reefs more then you know. Yes a lot of stuff comes from the ocean, but there are people out there that farm in their tanks and get corals back into the reef system.
A lot of the frags are fragged from the sea, they are not just pulled to pull and sell them. (Granted some third parties do that) this is where research of where your critters come from that is helpful.

Yes I pull from the sea, and once it gets big enough, we dive and return it to make more on the reefs.

I have been part of catch, bred, and release program here in Florida. It was for mangroves and snails. But Yes I understand and agree with those programs. They are vitally important. I wrote a paper in my junior year about how vital it is for deep sea and shallow sea oil drills to create artificial reefs on their stands. Granted Texas was way ahead and start doing that anyway but the thought still counts.

 

[MnFish1]

To everyone who disagrees with me,

I apologize if it seem s like I am scolding or being mean to anyone. That was not my intention. I had posted this question after I contacted my local state park Florida wildlife center and neither answered so I had figured the best idea was to go onto this site because this forum and its users are amazing and willing to offer their opinions. After about 5 mintues of posting this, the state park called me back. I asked them numerous questions, Such as if it was safe to return, should I put it in a Q.tank, and other questions that I have seen here. All the response I gave came from the Park rangers and thus I would inform people so they could learn just as I did. I realize that now, it may come off as scolding people but that was not my intention as stated above. I apologize.

As for the debate on captive bred fish, I will not change my opinion nor am I asking you to change yours. Would I like for all aquarium fish to be captive raised. well duh, but in my OPINION that will not happen for awhile no matter how much people like me push. I have also cited my sources roughly 3 times on this forum thus I am not going to keep stating them. You can take my statements or leave it. In the end you are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine.

I am in this hobby for my own reason, just as you are in yours. I am not an environmentalist but a conservationist. There is a difference. I do not agree with tying my self to a tree to make a point, and would prefer to fight laws and governments to help our planet.

Thank you and have a good day.

I like your response. I don't understand though and am interested in your position on something like this:

From a fish market in Hawaii. I mean - which tang would you rather be - one thats in a 4 foot tank - or this bucket ready to be grilled? The honest truth is that you never did provide a source = the link you posted didnt work. Saying 'a textbook' is also not a reference.

Im interested - what kind of fish do you have in your tank? Can we see a picture? When you collect fish from your 'local friends' if they took the fish out of the ocean - whats the difference? Actually just honest questions to your OP. Thanks

 

[Alex.M.]

I just got a shipment of mini conch snails from indo pacific farms that are captive raised (and are breeding like crazy in my tank). I agree that this doesn't account for a large percentage of the snails in the trade, but there are some!

I also got some snails from them as well as reef cleaner here in Florida. I got like 10 Mexican snails, and some macro algae. Reef cleaners is a great website for some captive grown inverts and macro algae

 

[MnFish1]

I also got some snails from them as well as reef cleaner here in Florida. I got like 10 Mexican snails, and some macro algae. Reef cleaners is a great website for some captive grown inverts and macro algae

Reef cleaners also takes their inverts out of the ocean (from their site):

We adhere to strict quarantine procedures to ensure unwanted pests do not take hold in your tank when dipping isn't adequate. We pride ourselves on delivering quality products and advice. If you have questions please let us know, we are here to help.

We are aware of the value you place on sustainable collection practices. We are firmly committed to only using collection methods that do not impact the environment. We manage all of the fishing grounds we collect from, only applying pressure to the fishery at times and in locations when it is prudent to do so. We impose upon ourselves a bag limit that is stricter than those imposed by FWC on nearly every species we collect. Additionally, we will never knowingly purchase livestock from any collector that uses trawls, dredges, or any other apparatus that causes damage the sea floor or the substrate.

 

[Alex.M.]

I like your response. I don't understand though and am interested in your position on something like this:

From a fish market in Hawaii. I mean - which tang would you rather be - one thats in a 4 foot tank - or this bucket ready to be grilled? The honest truth is that you never did provide a source = the link you posted didnt work. Saying 'a textbook' is also not a reference.

Im interested - what kind of fish do you have in your tank? Can we see a picture? When you collect fish from your 'local friends' if they took the fish out of the ocean - whats the difference? Actually just honest questions to your OP. Thanks

That's a hard question, mainly because I hate seafood. Not because of any opinion, but sea food doesn't taste good. LOL.

But thats a double edge sword in all honesty. I LOVE meat, and would totally eat only meat if I could get away with it. But I have also see documentaries, like Food Inc and others which make me hate meat. I think, personally, we should only eat farmed raise animals. But at the same time we need to increase the care and awareness that we provide for farm raise animals. But in the US, farms are limited by supply demand and regulations placed on them by state and nation governments.

So my tank has taken a long time to set up and current only have 2 fish in it. I have two captive raised Banggai Cardinals, 1 pincushion urchin, 1 clam, 10 Mexican turbos, and a lot of snails. All of mine have been captive raised. The cardinals were bought online and were a lot more expensive than their wild caught bothers, but to me it was worth it. the urchin was from a friend who didn't know that she got a male and female thus it had babies. My local fish store raises snails thus I knew those were captive raised. The calm i got because my neighbor was getting rid of their tank and was going to kill it by letting it dry out so i offered to take it. It is the only one that I do not know if it is captive raised or wild harvested.

As for my sources, I apologize that I do not have the article or text book name. TO be honest I never thought it would come up in conversation since all my friends and family were with me when I first learned about this. I did email my old professor for the article and the textbook title so I could provide more information. However she is traveling in India and China so I am not sure when she will get back with me. All i remember was the text book was for my Environmental Ethics and Global Conservation class. We had a guest speaker named Dr.Lee from china and his paper was about Fish harvesting and how its more profitable to have captive raised fish rather than wild caught.

 

[Alex.M.]

Reef cleaners also takes their inverts out of the ocean (from their site):

We adhere to strict quarantine procedures to ensure unwanted pests do not take hold in your tank when dipping isn't adequate. We pride ourselves on delivering quality products and advice. If you have questions please let us know, we are here to help.

We are aware of the value you place on sustainable collection practices. We are firmly committed to only using collection methods that do not impact the environment. We manage all of the fishing grounds we collect from, only applying pressure to the fishery at times and in locations when it is prudent to do so. We impose upon ourselves a bag limit that is stricter than those imposed by FWC on nearly every species we collect. Additionally, we will never knowingly purchase livestock from any collector that uses trawls, dredges, or any other apparatus that causes damage the sea floor or the substrate.

They also have captive bred animals, not many but some. They mainly bred algae not inverts. The reason they sometimes sell captive bred is when the wild one breeds and has babies thus its captive bred at that point.

 

[dutch27]

My understanding has always been captive raised could be wild caught as juvies, raised in captivity, then sold. Opposed to captive bred, which are indeed bred in captivity. For saltwater fish this is a very limited selection. Just be sure you understand if there's a difference in how vendors may use the term.

 

[MnFish1]

That's a hard question, mainly because I hate seafood. Not because of any opinion, but sea food doesn't taste good. LOL.

But thats a double edge sword in all honesty. I LOVE meat, and would totally eat only meat if I could get away with it. But I have also see documentaries, like Food Inc and others which make me hate meat. I think, personally, we should only eat farmed raise animals. But at the same time we need to increase the care and awareness that we provide for farm raise animals. But in the US, farms are limited by supply demand and regulations placed on them by state and nation governments.

So my tank has taken a long time to set up and current only have 2 fish in it. I have two captive raised Banggai Cardinals, 1 pincushion urchin, 1 clam, 10 Mexican turbos, and a lot of snails. All of mine have been captive raised. The cardinals were bought online and were a lot more expensive than their wild caught bothers, but to me it was worth it. the urchin was from a friend who didn't know that she got a male and female thus it had babies. My local fish store raises snails thus I knew those were captive raised. The calm i got because my neighbor was getting rid of their tank and was going to kill it by letting it dry out so i offered to take it. It is the only one that I do not know if it is captive raised or wild harvested.

As for my sources, I apologize that I do not have the article or text book name. TO be honest I never thought it would come up in conversation since all my friends and family were with me when I first learned about this. I did email my old professor for the article and the textbook title so I could provide more information. However she is traveling in India and China so I am not sure when she will get back with me. All i remember was the text book was for my Environmental Ethics and Global Conservation class. We had a guest speaker named Dr.Lee from china and his paper was about Fish harvesting and how its more profitable to have captive raised fish rather than wild caught.

Thanks. I guess I was asking you - since you dont like things taken from the ocean - what about all fishing'?

 

[MnFish1]

They also have captive bred animals, not many but some. They mainly bred algae not inverts. The reason they sometimes sell captive bred is when the wild one breeds and has babies thus its captive bred at that point.

I cant believe you would care about harvesting algae from the ocean?

 

[Alex.M.]

Thanks. I guess I was asking you - since you dont like things taken from the ocean - what about all fishing'?

Do you mean whats my opinion of general fishing or personal fishing or fishing for food?

 

[Alex.M.]

My understanding has always been captive raised could be wild caught as juvies, raised in captivity, then sold. Opposed to captive bred, which are indeed bred in captivity. For saltwater fish this is a very limited selection. Just be sure you understand if there's a difference in how vendors may use the term.

I didnt know this, thank you for informing me. I was told by my LFS that if it says captive raised or captive bred that it was the same thing just worded differently.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you mean whats my opinion of general fishing or personal fishing or fishing for food?

In your OP you said: PS I completely disagree about taking animals from the wild and HATE when people do this!

The point I was making with the picture of the tangs in the ice chest about to be grilled was which is better - the tang from the ocean in a tank - or the tang from the ocean on a grill? I.e. - are you against all 'fishing' personal, general or for food. All 3 are taking animals from the wild. I see from your other thread (nice tank btw) - that you were an intern at a zoo - did you express those sentiments there as well (weren't they mostly taken 'from the wild'?

 

[Alex.M.]

Actually, thats were my opinion on not taking animals from the wild came from. I hated watching these wild animals get confined to a small tank after spending it entire life in the ocean just for human pleasure. Before my internship I was of the opinion that it was ok since the animals are used in breeding programs. Now it just makes me unhappy. I watched as people would scratch and pick up the stingrays, and even when you told them to be gentle they never listened. It was a rough awaking for me. I did mention a few opinions to friends after work, but I know my opinion is unpopular.

I think our food should be farmed raised. I don't like to fish nor do I think we need to fish if our food can be provided in a farm raised habitat. However that being said, I have friends that fish and go hunting. I don't agree since we have plenty of food in markets. The most I can say is that I buy from local markets and butchers.

I think I am starting to understand where you are coming from. I know that there is a lot more to this conversation and decision, such as local and national economics, cultural settings, laws, etc.

 

[lvsuckerfish]

I am defiantly not a Expert on the subject. But I do look at it like this.

Wild caught fish:
They breed in the wild ( looks as if (the Hobby) is still learning on how some or all fish Breed to mimic this in the glass boxes we have.
They will produce more then we will ever be able to mimic in our glass boxes.
I personally am okay with Wild caught fish as I know I am going to give them a Good life in my glass box. Is it better than in the wild I do not know I am not Dory I don't speak fish but I observe and they seem happy to me.

Captive breed fish:
Although this is a Good thing But it is limited on what fish and what the demand is for certain species. This will be a great thing once we ( The Hobby) get to that point.
Still a lot to learn from captive breeding some people and some companies are out there doing what they can to accomplish these task. But as others stated Price point is a factor. Some will pay the premium for a captive breed fish some will not. Most LFS will get the cheapest they can find to maximize their profits. After all it is a Business. Housing 10 yellow tangs and have a price tag of 80.00 when anther LFS has some for 40.00 some folks like me look at the price and not so Much the origin.

I am Still that way I do have both in my tank Captive breed clowns as I call them Designer clowns and wild caught fish. All my corals came from LFS or other reefers.

I agree with someone who posted with all the corals we have in these tanks is there really a need to dive for more No not really but some reefers are about the name of the coral and will give a Kidney for a 1/4 frag of super doper ultra bounce bubble rainbow tip Insert coral species after all that and pick a price.

I have a saying at my house I tell my Kids Alex I am directing this to you! "Do not talk about it Be about it." I say research on what you can do to learn how to breed some of these species and get to making babies. As some of your post came across as it is my way or the highway. I understand you did not mean for them to come across like that But they did seem that way to me and others.

And I do Applaud you for wanting change in the hobby!

 

[MnFish1]

Actually, thats were my opinion on not taking animals from the wild came from. I hated watching these wild animals get confined to a small tank after spending it entire life in the ocean just for human pleasure. Before my internship I was of the opinion that it was ok since the animals are used in breeding programs. Now it just makes me unhappy. I watched as people would scratch and pick up the stingrays, and even when you told them to be gentle they never listened. It was a rough awaking for me. I did mention a few opinions to friends after work, but I know my opinion is unpopular.

I think our food should be farmed raised. I don't like to fish nor do I think we need to fish if our food can be provided in a farm raised habitat. However that being said, I have friends that fish and go hunting. I don't agree since we have plenty of food in markets. The most I can say is that I buy from local markets and butchers.

I think I am starting to understand where you are coming from. I know that there is a lot more to this conversation and decision, such as local and national economics, cultural settings, laws, etc.

I would suggest - that zoos are often the thing that get people interested in conservation in the first place. Aquariums probably have done more to promote knowledge of the problems in the reefs than any 'magazine article' could. Every one is filled with posters, guides that mention damage to the reefs, etc.

There are a lot of people out there that think as you mentioned in your OP - ban taking of all wild animals for any reason. Animals are the same as people, etc. Whats interesting is that when the wolves are ripping up a deer on National Geographic and people are trumpeting about how great it is to have them back in Yellowstone - they don't seem to think about the deer. When deer hunting season comes around - now its all about 'cruelty to hunt deer'.

Your post about not putting fish from the ocean in tanks is a little bit of the same analogy - fish die every day in the ocean. How much power, carbon, waste, etc is produced raising fish in a building - vs harvesting them in the wild. There are so many sides to this question.

 

[Alex.M.]

I am defiantly not a Expert on the subject. But I do look at it like this.

Wild caught fish:
They breed in the wild ( looks as if (the Hobby) is still learning on how some or all fish Breed to mimic this in the glass boxes we have.
They will produce more then we will ever be able to mimic in our glass boxes.
I personally am okay with Wild caught fish as I know I am going to give them a Good life in my glass box. Is it better than in the wild I do not know I am not Dory I don't speak fish but I observe and they seem happy to me.

Captive breed fish:
Although this is a Good thing But it is limited on what fish and what the demand is for certain species. This will be a great thing once we ( The Hobby) get to that point.
Still a lot to learn from captive breeding some people and some companies are out there doing what they can to accomplish these task. But as others stated Price point is a factor. Some will pay the premium for a captive breed fish some will not. Most LFS will get the cheapest they can find to maximize their profits. After all it is a Business. Housing 10 yellow tangs and have a price tag of 80.00 when anther LFS has some for 40.00 some folks like me look at the price and not so Much the origin.

I am Still that way I do have both in my tank Captive breed clowns as I call them Designer clowns and wild caught fish. All my corals came from LFS or other reefers.

I agree with someone who posted with all the corals we have in these tanks is there really a need to dive for more No not really but some reefers are about the name of the coral and will give a Kidney for a 1/4 frag of super doper ultra bounce bubble rainbow tip Insert coral species after all that and pick a price.

I have a saying at my house I tell my Kids Alex I am directing this to you! "Do not talk about it Be about it." I say research on what you can do to learn how to breed some of these species and get to making babies. As some of your post came across as it is my way or the highway. I understand you did not mean for them to come across like that But they did seem that way to me and others.

And I do Applaud you for wanting change in the hobby!

Thank you for your input. I have been told by many that I sometimes come cross to harshly when on the internet, phone or texting. When in person its easier to tell that I do not many ill intentions as I am smiling and enjoying the conversations. It only when people inform me that I have hurt them in someway do I notice that I have made an error. I am a lot better than I was, but it seems like I still have ways to go .

I actually plan to do something about it! ( i am not trying to be mean, but I just wish to tell you my plan because I am super excited to share it with everyone ) After I graduate I plan to go to business school and then create a business for salt water fish and owners, where all the fish are captive bred based on clean energy, green ecosystem farm and 100% (hopefully) recycled materials. Ive been planing this business since I was in 7th grade. at the time it was geared to lizards ( I have a uromastyx) but I got passionate about our oceans and aquatic ecosystems.