Tank Un-cycled Help please

[Ryan9316]

Ok, the plan is in motion. I already use HANNA for Alk, and Salifert for MG and CA. I'm not adding anything to the tank for a week

 

[Willu]

API test kit for phosphate, I realize it's probably trash. But it's reading about .25, could ultra low phosphate cause this? Should I remove the GFO?

.25 ppm phosphate is actually quite high, it is often recommended to keep it below 1ppm. That being said though, there are many people that have very high phosphates and have a successful reef tank, so I doubt that phosphates are causing you any trouble. You can keep the GFO in there still if you'd like.

 

[Ryan9316]

.25 ppm phosphate is actually quite high, it is often recommended to keep it below 1ppm. That being said though, there are many people that have very high phosphates and have a successful reef tank, so I doubt that phosphates are causing you any trouble. You can keep the GFO in there still if you'd like.

I removed it for now, lets see what the ICP test shows.

 

[Brew12]

No, my corals are dying, and all other parameters are in range. Attached are pics. It's an API Ammonia kit, I've heard the can be wrong, but since the tank is obviously in distress I had no reason to question it. I've lost 6 Acro's that were growing well before, and my Walt Disney just died yesterday.

I would question it. Some coral will use ammonia directly as a nitrogen source. It seems very unlikely to me that coral would be harmed but the fish are surviving. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I wouldn't write it off as a certainty.

One of the fastest remediation you can take if this is an ammonia issue is add algae back into your tank. Most algae's are very efficient at processing ammonia. The fact you removed your algae at the same time you saw the ammonia starting to climb does make sense. It's possible that the algae had out competed your bacteria in the race to process ammonia. However, 2 bottles of biospira and a few weeks should have remedied that.

I do agree with the assertion that you may have stripped too much PO4 out of your system. Not only do coral need it but nitrifying bacteria also need it to process ammonia. With all that said, I'm not convinced your ammonia is as high as you believe unless your pH is VERY low. As in almost dissolving your rock/sand type low.

 

[Ryan9316]

I would question it. Some coral will use ammonia directly as a nitrogen source. It seems very unlikely to me that coral would be harmed but the fish are surviving. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I wouldn't write it off as a certainty.

One of the fastest remediation you can take if this is an ammonia issue is add algae back into your tank. Most algae's are very efficient at processing ammonia. The fact you removed your algae at the same time you saw the ammonia starting to climb does make sense. It's possible that the algae had out competed your bacteria in the race to process ammonia. However, 2 bottles of biospira and a few weeks should have remedied that.

I do agree with the assertion that you may have stripped too much PO4 out of your system. Not only do coral need it but nitrifying bacteria also need it to process ammonia. With all that said, I'm not convinced your ammonia is as high as you believe unless your pH is VERY low. As in almost dissolving your rock/sand type low.

My pH is low, I've been keeping it at 7.8 on purpose to keep the ammonia toxicity down. Yes I think the refugium was processing ammonia, it's no coincidence that it went up afterwards, I had a nice chunk of chaeto back there.

 

[tankstudy]

6. Ammonia wouldn't drop, so I added bacteria.
7. Ammonia getting higher, started adding prime

How high was ammonia before you added bacteria in a bottle?

 

[brandon429]

and how was that reading verified/type of tester/backed by any other - very required accessory info to discern true levels. the sheer amount of false ammonia readings is overwhelming in the hobby, we have collected about twenty in our cycling thread. running reef tanks wont support free daily ammonia, live rock scrubs any amounts (seneye users know)

when there's true free ammonia, its overcoming by rot/addition the known oxidation levels of a running reef tank...ie more than six ppm leaking constantly. cycled tanks routinely handle 4+ ppm when tested for oxidation, the command for free ammonia is sky high within our tanks, none is left over extended and if you have persistent free ammonia in a reef tank you will have clouding, smell, fish behavior breathing issues, loss of CUC, what wont occur is a fully normal looking reef tank. thats why we start with a tank pic, not a test reading imo.

We routinely, commonly, take refugiums and sandbeds offline and no free ammonia results in the work thread linked.

all indications are zero free ammonia on this tank per pics and per absolutely no indicator other than 1 ammonia test.

 

[Ryan9316]

How high was ammonia before you added bacteria in a bottle?

1ppm, after the first bottle dropped to .25, then came back up again after a week. I've put $50+ of bacteria in the tank to no avail. Brandon, forget the testing I can look in the tank and see coral's suffering. After a 50% water change this morning, here are some of the worse off corals. If it's not ammonia which is registering at 2ppm at the moment, what is it?

 

[brandon429]

see the fish swimming down low in that pic above? not ammonia at all. he'd be laboring at the top, red gilled and panting. see the open anemone at the very bottom, the most sensitive invert in the whole tank?

rip clean it

nobody can tell you the causative. using p04 strippers is the likely suspect, they've been off all of a few hours it takes months to rebound, with the cpr mentioned above. you'll have to pick a restoration plan and run it. customizing or blending wont work, thats why there's only one example thread here so far.

I know how that work may sound, but the pages are right there for inspection. one hours read, you can see if your tank looks like a candidate. ammonia is not targeting, it harms everything in the tank when its true

 

[MnFish1]

API test kit for phosphate, I realize it's probably trash. But it's reading about .25, could ultra low phosphate cause this? Should I remove the GFO?

Dont know - I was just saying that whatever happened - when your coral started dying - could have caused a much lower PO4

 

[Ryan9316]

see the fish swimming down low in that pic above? not ammonia at all. he'd be laboring at the top, red gilled and panting. see the open anemone at the very bottom, the most sensitive invert in the whole tank?

rip clean it

nobody can tell you the causative. using p04 strippers is the likely suspect, they've been off all of a few hours it takes months to rebound, with the cpr mentioned above. you'll have to pick a restoration plan and run it. customizing or blending wont work, thats why there's only one example thread here so far.

I know how that work may sound, but the pages are right there for inspection. one hours read, you can see if your tank looks like a candidate. ammonia is not targeting, it harms everything in the tank when its true

I'll have the ammonia badge tomorrow. Brandon sorry I'm having a bit of trouble understanding you, are you saying read the sand cleaning thread?

 

[Ryan9316]

Dont know - I was just saying that whatever happened - when your coral started dying - could have caused a much lower PO4

I've been running Chemipure, purigen, and rowaphos since I finished cycling the tank. Here are pictures with the exact same setup two months ago before I removed the refugium and overdosed the 1 part. After those two events I had high levels of ammonia and have had them since. Makes me sad to see how good everything was doing.

 

[Ryan9316]

My bacteria got rekt somehow, or maybe the refugium was doing most of the work, I just don't understand how after TWO months of waiting the tank hasn't cycled again. I put so much work trying to keep this tank alive, every day I'm just watching corals get worse.

 

[MnFish1]

My comment - stop - stop testing *unless you're adding stuff. Stop adjusting, wringing your hands (no offense) - Just stop... Watch. Wait (I think you sent an ICP test - it will show something probably - insignificant - though it will seem insignificant. Stop changing carbon, GFO (I hate GFO - if you have it I (just me) would take it out - just wait and watch.

 

[MnFish1]

My bacteria got rekt somehow, or maybe the refugium was doing most of the work, I just don't understand how after TWO months of waiting the tank hasn't cycled again. I put so much work trying to keep this tank alive, every day I'm just watching corals get worse.

You already have the answer. Right? Fish are swimming, shrimp are playing - your cycle is not wrecked - you're basing your opinion on a test - which - is probably incorrect

 

[William Mumford]

My bacteria got rekt somehow, or maybe the refugium was doing most of the work, I just don't understand how after TWO months of waiting the tank hasn't cycled again. I put so much work trying to keep this tank alive, every day I'm just watching corals get worse.

My tank cycled in 8 months. Sucked but it was worth the wait for some reason everything in this hobby takes forever. Consistently and patience are the key to success. Water changes only get rid of ammonia in the water column the majority of the ammonia is on the rocks or substrate.

 

[brandon429]

Yep I really recommend it, and its not totally to promote people reading my pages of yapping. just skim through the before pics and find one that is really bad, worse than your tank.

look at the after pics. if it seemed like a big job then do read the interim, see the pages of patterns. what you are contemplating is literally reef tank surgery, if you think some other method is better or safer, request/seek/locate as many pages to inspect. I can't claim that method as best, only that its safe to employ and in changing out the water, and rinsing sand, you've removed all suspect variables vs testing further for them.

its an option but its one that has outcomes already logged, this is rare among action plans. I dont even think you have much wrong with your tank if you left it, that coral is nice mass.

removing po4 mightve done it, just needs time in that evaluation but at any time you want to run a full tank cleaning, you can. you did most of it already which is why I think if you merely leave your tank as is, and practice the feed/water change cpr part you could just continue and not mess w your bed.

those corals arent receding flesh they're recently offended. some of those look really nice. not a problem tank to fix, but problem testing for sure has occurred in some manner. it is why I dont recommend people learn to control ammonia off testing, use biology ruling to control it, thats 100% effective or we'd have dying tanks left and right in that thread. no false alarms are created when biology is used to determine if you have free ammonia vs a test kit.

*buy seneye digital ammonia if you want the right stuff.

its readouts will then follow all the rules of biological assessment of ammonia.

 

[MnFish1]

My tank cycled in 8 months. Sucked but it was worth the wait for some reason everything in this hobby takes forever. Consistently and patience are the key to success. Water changes only get rid of ammonia in the water column the majority of the ammonia is on the rocks or substrate.

That is a myth - nothing takes forever. Bacteria is bacteria. Whenever someone has a problem - they say - your tank is not 'mature enough'. Of course they cant define what that means. And - depending on the water flow - water changes do not get rid of ammonia 'only in the water column'. The water on the rocks is also in the 'water column'. Now - this is not to say - there aren't localized concentrations of high ammonia - there probably are - but - this - no... unless you have some evidence- which everyone would like to see...

 

[MnFish1]

My tank cycled in 8 months. Sucked but it was worth the wait for some reason everything in this hobby takes forever. Consistently and patience are the key to success. Water changes only get rid of ammonia in the water column the majority of the ammonia is on the rocks or substrate.

You might think that - but your tank didnt take 8months to cycle lol if cycling a tank - there would be no LFS in business - who would say - ok - im going to start a fish business. First - I'll pay 8 months rent and then start adding things.....?

 

[William Mumford]

You might think that - but your tank didnt take 8months to cycle lol if cycling a tank - there would be no LFS in business - who would say - ok - im going to start a fish business. First - I'll pay 8 months rent and then start adding things.....?

Okay I'm sure you know. I remember when you came over and tested my tank water.