The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[sixty_reefer]

My take is that in a mature and properly cared for reef aquarium, the hobbyist added nutrients ('food stuffs') are ultimately utilized by resident bacteria which are then dispersed throughout the system with any type of flow (especially so in the case of water column living bacteria such as Pelagibacterales, and others). Since corals are adaptable mixotrophs (can utilize multiple food sources based on what is currently available), when given an abundance of suitable bacteria in their environment the bacteria will become a sizeable component of their nutritional profile.

And that's why I do not use or advocate using products that alter or destroy any part of a functioning resident microbiome.

I don’t want to sound argumentative although is all just a matter of perspective to me.

Quote:
“a mature and properly cared for reef aquarium”

a mature and properly cared system is all about intervention for example a algae bed, carbon dosing, ATS, roller filter, protein skimmer etc are all types of interventions only difference being that different methods of nutrient control have been contributing for a stable system.

As you know Pelagibacterales and other types of heterotrophic bacteria in our system are carbon limited and they only as effective as the carbon we add in the system (by intervention)

most coral we keep are autotrophic so is algae some NPS may be mixathrophic


“And that's why I do not use or advocate using products that alter or destroy any part of a functioning resident microbiome”.

Everything we do as aquarists will have direct affect on the microbiome for as small as it may look.

 

[beesnreefs]

@sixty_reefer im really interested in this approach. The idea of supporting the bacteria that will feed corals and keep nuisance algae/cyano at a minimum is intriguing.

My 6-month old system is consistently holding at 0.05-0.1 phosphates and 3-5 nitrates now…could I use TM NP-Bacto Balance instead of Actif?

 

[Nano sapiens]

I don’t want to sound argumentative although is all just a matter of perspective to me.

I would hope that the content is considered and challenged if one has a defensible alternative viewpoint...so all good

Quote:
“a mature and properly cared for reef aquarium”

a mature and properly cared system is all about intervention for example a algae bed, carbon dosing, ATS, roller filter, protein skimmer etc are all types of interventions only difference being that different methods of nutrient control have been contributing for a stable system.

True, since our reef systems are but functional imitations of the natural reef, there will always be some type of intervention required to maintain conditions acceptable for our animals. Reef systems will trend towards dynamic equilibrium over an extended period of time if the known beneficial parameters are met/maintained and we resist the urge to perpetually perturb (aka 'tinker with') the system. I personally prefer the 'less-is-more' approach to reef keeping, but that is of course not the only way to keep a successful reef aquarium (just the most sensible, in my view).

As you know Pelagibacterales and other types of heterotrophic bacteria in our system are carbon limited and they only as effective as the carbon we add in the system (by intervention)

The natural reef is also carbon limited, so one can say that this is a natural condition. One can of course add addition carbon above and beyond what is delivered via feeding, but whether that is necessary or desirable is entirely system specific.

most coral we keep are autotrophic so is algae some NPS may be mixathrophic

The zooxanthellae that the coral host is an autotroph, but the coral animal itself is a mixatroph:

https://byjus.com/question-answer/what-is-mixotrophic-nutrition/

Mixotrophic nutrition refers to the organisms which include different modes of nutrition. Some organisms can be autotrophic and heterotrophic as well and therefore, organisms which exhibit different modes of nutrition are mixotrophic. Organisms exhibiting this type of nutrition are known as mixotrophs.

The typical 'photosynthetic' corals we keep can utilize the products of photosynthesis from its zooxanthellae, as well as feed on zooplankton, phytoplankton, bacterioplankton, detritus, algae fragments/spores, etc. (species specific as to what they can, and can't, utilize). Remarkably adaptable animals!

“And that's why I do not use or advocate using products that alter or destroy any part of a functioning resident microbiome”.

Everything we do as aquarists will have direct affect on the microbiome for as small as it may look.

Opinion: The idea I'm trying to convey is that we as aquarists should try not to negatively effect a fully functional and established reef microbiome. I'm referring here to additives and/or procedures that we know can negatively alter or destroy the bacteria/archaea and other microbial members of the holobiont and/or the system's microbiome. Each time we do, at best we force the system to reset/readapt....and at worst we can cause the collapse of the ecosystem.

 

[Subsea]

Outstanding dialogues. Keep it coming. You guys are making me go to the dictionary tooo much.

On a differrent note, I contacted Tropic Marine about Reef Actif being discontinued. The answer was NO.

Re: Conversation with Tropical Marine Centre

Hi pat I just checked stock we do have both 60g and 300g in stock. if you speak to your local TMC distributor I am sure they can get for you.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@sixty_reefer im really interested in this approach. The idea of supporting the bacteria that will feed corals and keep nuisance algae/cyano at a minimum is intriguing.

My 6-month old system is consistently holding at 0.05-0.1 phosphates and 3-5 nitrates now…could I use TM NP-Bacto Balance instead of Actif?

They different products that I find that have different uses, with no nuisance in the system bacto balance is a good method as it reduces pollutants wile at the same time adding source of nitrogen and phosphorus that aid coral growth, reef actif imo is just bacteria nutrition and a way to transform uneaten food into nutrients for other organisms including coral and bacteria.

it just depends on your current situation and what you think your system would benefit from

 

[TokenReefer]

Won't uneaten food turn into nutrients without anything added? Is the goal simply to speed that up? I'm trying to fig the scenario where help is needed by us adding something

 

[Dburr1014]

They different products that I find that have different uses, with no nuisance in the system bacto balance is a good method as it reduces pollutants wile at the same time adding source of nitrogen and phosphorus that aid coral growth, reef actif imo is just bacteria nutrition and a way to transform uneaten food into nutrients for other organisms including coral and bacteria.

it just depends on your current situation and what you think your system would benefit from

So in a nutshell, there is no other product similar to reef actif?
I'm waiting for my supply but I don't want to be locked in. I'm probably going to ween on to it and then ween back off.
I will be posting pics as I go along.

 

[Dburr1014]

Won't uneaten food turn into nutrients without anything added? Is the goal simply to speed that up? I'm trying to fig the scenario where help is needed by us adding something

This is just building up bacteria so it will use up ammonia before the nuisances get a chance to. I can't see any lithe reason to do this unless it's just as a once a week thing to steady the ship,sort of speak.

 

[sixty_reefer]

"I don't post all that much, but when I do..."

I would hope that the content is considered and challenged if one has a defensible alternative viewpoint...so all good



True, since our reef systems are but functional imitations of the natural reef, there will always be some type of intervention required to maintain conditions acceptable for our animals. Reef systems will trend towards dynamic equilibrium over an extended period of time if the known beneficial parameters are met/maintained and we resist the urge to perpetually perturb (aka 'tinker with') the system. I personally prefer the 'less-is-more' approach to reef keeping, but that is of course not the only way to keep a successful reef aquarium (just the most sensible, in my view).



The natural reef is also carbon limited, so one can say that this is a natural condition. One can of course add addition carbon above and beyond what is delivered via feeding, but whether that is necessary or desirable is entirely system specific.

To a certain extent that’s correct, you not taking into account the ocean carbon cycle. (Natural process) The ocean is a sink hole for co2 trough photosynthesis phytoplankton and other algaes (mainly phytoplankton) will oxidise carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and reduce it to carbohydrates that will enter the water column through the demineralisation process.
in our system we don’t have that option and the sole entry comes from carbohydrates in fish food

The zooxanthellae that the coral host is an autotroph, but the coral animal itself is a mixatroph:

https://byjus.com/question-answer/what-is-mixotrophic-nutrition/

Mixotrophic nutrition refers to the organisms which include different modes of nutrition. Some organisms can be autotrophic and heterotrophic as well and therefore, organisms which exhibit different modes of nutrition are mixotrophic. Organisms exhibiting this type of nutrition are known as mixotrophs.

The typical 'photosynthetic' corals we keep can utilize the products of photosynthesis from its zooxanthellae, as well as feed on zooplankton, phytoplankton, bacterioplankton, detritus, algae fragments/spores, etc. (species specific as to what they can, and can't, utilize). Remarkably adaptable animals!



Opinion: The idea I'm trying to convey is that we as aquarists should try not to negatively effect a fully functional and established reef microbiome. I'm referring here to additives and/or procedures that we know can negatively alter or destroy the bacteria/archaea and other microbial members of the holobiont and/or the system's microbiome. Each time we do, at best we force the system to reset/readapt....and at worst we can cause the collapse of the ecosystem.

I agree that if a system is stable and no issues we should mess with it.

 

[sixty_reefer]

So in a nutshell, there is no other product similar to reef actif?
I'm waiting for my supply but I don't want to be locked in. I'm probably going to ween on to it and then ween back off.
I will be posting pics as I go along.

That I’m aware no, the most similar product would be live phytoplankton imo
Live phytoplankton users that try it will see the resemblance in effects to a system

 

[TokenReefer]

This is just building up bacteria so it will use up ammonia before the nuisances get a chance to. I can't see any lithe reason to do this unless it's just as a once a week thing to steady the ship,sort of speak.

OK. I can get behind an infrequent benecial dose I think

 

[sixty_reefer]

Won't uneaten food turn into nutrients without anything added? Is the goal simply to speed that up? I'm trying to fig the scenario where help is needed by us adding something

Imo not always, decomposing bacteria will only work to a certain extent depending of the availability of nutrients in the organisms being decomposed often not enough carbon. In nature this process is aided with detritivores (not bacteria ex: worms and other bottom duellers organisms) that home aquaria lacks on due to biodiversity challenges.

 

[TokenReefer]

Imo not always, decomposing bacteria will only work to a certain extent depending of the availability of nutrients in the organisms being decomposed often not enough carbon. In nature this process is aided with detritivores (not bacteria ex: worms and other bottom duellers organisms) that home aquaria lacks on due to biodiversity challenges.

OK. Makes sense. I'll never understand the "worm removal" threads because of this.

On the topic of detritus/uneaten food. Once it turns to mulm isn't it inert?

 

[ReefGeezer]

...Opinion: The idea I'm trying to convey is that we as aquarists should try not to negatively effect a fully functional and established reef microbiome. I'm referring here to additives and/or procedures that we know can negatively alter or destroy the bacteria/archaea and other microbial members of the holobiont and/or the system's microbiome. Each time we do, at best we force the system to reset/readapt....and at worst we can cause the collapse of the ecosystem.

Agreed. However, this assumes that there is a suitable biome established. Where tanks are young, started with dry rock, lacking in corals and other organisms, and over skimmed, the biome may be deficient.

 

[Subsea]

@sixty_reefer
“To a certain extent that’s correct, you not taking into account the ocean carbon cycle. (Natural process) The ocean is a sink hole for co2 trough photosynthesis phytoplankton and other algaes (mainly phytoplankton) will oxidise carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and reduce it to carbohydrates that will enter the water column through the demineralisation process.
in our system we don’t have that option and the sole entry comes from carbohydrates in fish food. “

Why does a reef tank differ from Nature In the way carbon dioxide enters the water to become alkalinity that when combined with photosynthesis becomes glucose which is carbon for the reef tank. I consider this a source of carbon dosing.

I don’t fully agree that the ocean is a carbon dioxide sink. Dynamic Equilibrium between gas constants of the water and atmosphere are a two way process: Oceaneering 101

 

[sixty_reefer]

OK. Makes sense. I'll never understand the "worm removal" threads because of this.

On the topic of detritus/uneaten food. Once it turns to mulm isn't it inert?

I think on the detritus itself it’s difficult to answer if it’s fully inert, marine detritus or mulm it’s composed from organic dead organisms.

 

[brandon429]

can we / readers / request only 1 new work job today added

we did three straight pages of type theory since page 7


I don't feel +1 actual work job, solicited from the throngs of help me posts with wrecked tanks in the nuisance forum or from any other reef board, is asking too much or steering the thread in a bad way. just one new actual job on 1/23/23 pls


what if not any tanks are able to be fixed, that means the type theory wasn't applicable / it's why we need lots of new jobs, to vet what's being typed. it also gains the benefit of fully reinforcing the theories, getting five or ten clearly fixed algae/dino/cyano reefs. it's a good double-edge sword, to be doing outbound live time work jobs.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@sixty_reefer
“To a certain extent that’s correct, you not taking into account the ocean carbon cycle. (Natural process) The ocean is a sink hole for co2 trough photosynthesis phytoplankton and other algaes (mainly phytoplankton) will oxidise carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and reduce it to carbohydrates that will enter the water column through the demineralisation process.
in our system we don’t have that option and the sole entry comes from carbohydrates in fish food. “

Why does a reef tank differ from Nature In the way carbon dioxide enters the water to become alkalinity that when combined with photosynthesis becomes glucose which is carbon for the reef tank. I consider this a source of carbon dosing.

I don’t fully agree that the ocean is a carbon dioxide sink. Dynamic Equilibrium between gas constants of the water and atmosphere are a two way process: Oceaneering 101

It’s a full cycle

co2 + photosynthesis will form carbohydrates > glucose that will thrive heterotrophic that will respire co2 back into the atmosphere.

that’s one way to see a full cycle

have you seen Dan_p latest testing on N-Doc he tested the water in it’s system and the effluent from the ulva ATS. the effluent from the ATS had a higher organic carbon reading Vs the organic carbon in the system itself most likely due to sugars being released from the ulva.
Triton has some papers encouraging aquarists at implanting refugiums with different species of algae for that same reason

Thoughts On My Aquarium Water Based On Triton NDOC Tests

I just received four TrIton NDOC test results for four samples from my system: aquarium water, 0.22 micron filtered aquarium water, 0.22 micron filtered Ulva pond water (my algae nitrate scrubber) and skimmate (table below). The first thing to note is that my aquarium water total organic...

www.reef2reef.com

The ocean is known for being a carbon sink and recent study’s are concerned as temperature raising my affect this storages.

July: Carbon storage in plankton | News and features | University of Bristol

www.bristol.ac.uk

 

[Dburr1014]

can we / readers / request only 1 new work job today added

we did three straight pages of type theory since page 7


I don't feel +1 actual work job, solicited from the throngs of help me posts with wrecked tanks in the nuisance forum or from any other reef board, is asking too much or steering the thread in a bad way. just one new actual job on 1/23/23 pls


what if not any tanks are able to be fixed, that means the type theory wasn't applicable / it's why we need lots of new jobs, to vet what's being typed. it also gains the benefit of fully reinforcing the theories, getting five or ten clearly fixed algae/dino/cyano reefs. it's a good double-edge sword, to be doing outbound live time work jobs.

I still can't get it until February 1st.
Until someone actually gets there hands on it we can't do a case study. Simple as that.

 

[brandon429]

That's you being awesome and showing initiative to help test

I want the theory typers to experience farming those out from folks who didn't know of the option, they then become accountable to those reefers for the outcome.

To get someone here not already reading this thread a promise or a likelihood of a promised outcome is required, they have to solicit hope to someone running low

If that pans out, the thread grows legitimately with helped reefs. And if it doesn't pan out, the let down folks will let us know so fast it'll be humbling.