To closed loop or not?

Brew12 · Dec 8, 2016

justingraham said:
That tunze looks like the death star inside a tank not for me

I'm a huge Star Wars fan so if they would make them actually look like Death Stars? Awesome!

Maybe get your choice of a Death Star, Tie Fighter or Millennium Falcon?

mcarroll said:
I'm a weirdo in that I do my return flow through vertical spraybars already (one per tank, generally)....I will attest to good results.

I was planning on doing this too. Unfortunately, my current flow solution leaves me with dead spots on the bottom back of my tank that I need the extra flow directed at.

mcarroll · Dec 8, 2016

I run a spraybar from top to bottom in the corner, with the holes in the bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of the tank.

I've variously tapped the holes all in one line so it's quite directional (while still being totally mellow) or tapped them in an irregular line to the effect is extremely dispersed.

I never glue my plumbing in the tank so they can always be adjusted. On one I even "fabricated" a slip joint from fittings so the spraybar can be raised and lowered in place. (That turned out to a neat idea, but useless.)

justingraham · Dec 8, 2016

Hey what it comes down to is personal preference.
So u can put a tunze under a rock cool how do u hide the power cord? Under the sand then when u go to clean the tunze equals a mess.
Where u can have a closed loop under a rock as well (look at Mike and Terry's build) and put an enductors on it and get a lot of flow.
As for u saying well u can move the power heads to ur needs that is correct but if u had a tunze in a rock are u moving it?

I like sea swirls I do motion oceans I don't know about but people seem to like them as well. But I rather look at a spray nozzle in the water then a Death Star on the side of it.

I believe each has its place in a tank. If ur going for a tank where u are viewing from 3 angles I would go closed loop. If only the front panel is being viewed I would go with power heads.

But I can say with good certainty if u get the best of each equipment and the closed loop is run efficiently with the proper piping. Ur not loseing anything by going closed loop and it actually is a tad bit cheaper if u can drill ur own holes in the tank.

So say a 90 gallon tank with flow and I know mccarrol dislike ecotech but we are going to use them for this scenario. U will need at least 3 mp 40s at 350 a pop. So 1050. Well u can get two m1 on a closed loop for 700 and have the same features.

That's my thoughts and what I'm sticking to.

I will say tho I am going to add 2 wavs when I upgrade. So I don't fully hate power heads I just believe closed loop is a better choice for me and for what I want to accomplish in my tank and in my wallet

Dom · Jun 1, 2017

I realize I'm responding to a thread that is 6 months old, but I didn't see the point of a new thread on an old subject.

I'm in the planning stage of a new build and have been considering making a closed loop part of the build.

A closed loop is a way of creating additional flow in the tank. The same could be achieved by installing multiple exits for water off the return pump in the sump.

It could be argued that multiple exits off of the return pump would reduce the force of the flow.

The force of water coming from four 3/4" return points with a given pump would be roughly 25% of the force of water from one return point using PVC pipe of the same diameter. Of course, flow from exit points closer to the return pump would be greater than those points further away. The installation of ball or gate valves would allow you to balance the system for equal flow from all points.

In the end, I think I'd prefer a heavier pump with multiple exit points over a closed loop.

Brew12 · Jun 1, 2017

Dom said:
I realize I'm responding to a thread that is 6 months old, but I didn't see the point of a new thread on an old subject.

I'm in the planning stage of a new build and have been considering making a closed loop part of the build.

A closed loop is a way of creating additional flow in the tank. The same could be achieved by installing multiple exits for water off the return pump in the sump.

It could be argued that multiple exits off of the return pump would reduce the force of the flow.

The force of water coming from four 3/4" return points with a given pump would be roughly 25% of the force of water from one return point using PVC pipe of the same diameter. Of course, flow from exit points closer to the return pump would be greater than those points further away. The installation of ball or gate valves would allow you to balance the system for equal flow from all points.

In the end, I think I'd prefer a heavier pump with multiple exit points over a closed loop.

I think it is more accurate to say that a closed loop is a way of creating a constant, more laminar, flow through the tank. Most closed loop systems use either multiple returns or a return header.

I like your idea, the only concern I would have is too much flow through the sump. Creating a sump bypass would be easy to do and would effectively combine a closed loop with the sump on a common pump. Not a bad idea at all if you install enough valves to balance everything out.

saltyfilmfolks · Jun 1, 2017

Not quite laminar , multiple heads create massine random flow. Esp once Sea swirls acceleratiors etc are used.

Return flow is highly debatable. 10x was the Internet go to flow rate, 5x and under is a reefer preference, and I Belize 10x and higher is the triton systems preference.
All can be controlled and set with the choice of the correct pump.

Part of the use of the closed loop was to avoid powerheads. That imo would be really cool.

I think it would be fun.

Where's our closed loop guru?

justingraham · Jun 1, 2017

What size tank?

I think that's the main point of going closed loop or not.

And I still don't understand why people fear anything over five times the turnover they the sump but that's another convo.

Upstartreefer · Jun 1, 2017

I just finalized my plan for my new tank just waiting on the new house to be built.

I am going to order it from Miracles it is a 72x30x24 it will have 2 1/2 holes in the back 8 inches off the sand with four 1"Returns on the back euro brace one on each side and 4 on the front.

I have not made my mind up as of yet if I want to go with oceans motions or go with the Ecotech L1's where I can hook them up to an Apex and have random flow or go with a AC pump with more power and Flow and hook it up to a Ocean's motions.

justingraham · Jun 1, 2017

Upstartreefer said:
I just finalized my plan for my new tank just waiting on the new house to be built.

I am going to order it from Miracles it is a 72x30x24 it will have 2 1/2 holes in the back 8 inches off the sand with four 1"Returns on the back euro brace one on each side and 4 on the front.

I have not made my mind up as of yet if I want to go with oceans motions or go with the Ecotech L1's where I can hook them up to an Apex and have random flow or go with a AC pump with more power and Flow and hook it up to a Ocean's motions.

You should go bigger then 1/2 for the drains.
Why not use an oceans motion with the vectra?
Vectra s don't connect to apex so that's out and a vectra l1 is plenty of flow for a closed loop
I wouldn't do an ac pump as to me an l1 is way more then enough flow and power

but that's me and I honestly don't know anything.

I would do sea swirls as ur returns on the closed loop tho or at least use penductors.

Upstartreefer · Jun 1, 2017

justingraham said:
You should go bigger then 1/2 for the drains.
Why not use an oceans motion with the vectra?
Vectra s don't connect to apex so that's out and a vectra l1 is plenty of flow for a closed loop
I wouldn't do an ac pump as to me an l1 is way more then enough flow and power

but that's me and I honestly don't know anything.

I would do sea swirls as ur returns on the closed loop tho or at least use penductors.

I am sorry there are going to be two 1 1/2" inlets to the closed loop pumps. Vectra L1 can be controlled by itself with the two closed loop programing already installed. So I wouldn't see a need for the oceans motions.

justingraham · Jun 1, 2017

Upstartreefer said:
I am sorry there are going to be two 1 1/2" inlets to the closed loop pumps. Vectra L1 can be controlled by itself with the two closed loop programing already installed. So I wouldn't see a need for the oceans motions.

Are you using two vectras?

I have used the vectras as closeloop pumps and I know it has programming to make it like a powerhead but nothing like an oceans motion.
the thing that you would use an oceans motions for is to have flow coming out of one return nozzle then another then another in a random matter.
A vectra alone would only be able to shoot the same speed or program out of each return at the same time.

If it were Me I would do the vectra on 100% closed loop using the schedule 40 adapters (that makes the intake 2 inches) and the return nozel be a one inch penguin penductor and the piping up to that point I would use 1 1/2. This way your getting the most bang for your buck.

I also don't think varying speed of flow has any benefits I rather run it at 100% and have random flow thruout the tank.

Upstartreefer · Jun 1, 2017

justingraham said:
Are you using two vectras?

I have used the vectras as closeloop pumps and I know it has programming to make it like a powerhead but nothing like an oceans motion.
the thing that you would use an oceans motions for is to have flow coming out of one return nozzle then another then another in a random matter.
A vectra alone would only be able to shoot the same speed or program out of each return at the same time.

If it were Me I would do the vectra on 100% closed loop using the schedule 40 adapters (that makes the intake 2 inches) and the return nozel be a one inch penguin penductor and the piping up to that point I would use 1 1/2. This way your getting the most bang for your buck.

I also don't think varying speed of flow has any benefits I rather run it at 100% and have random flow thruout the tank.

Yes I will have 2 vectras. I am planning on this tank to be a mixed reef but, mostly sps. The L1 is rated at 3100 gph at 0 head. I would have to have 2 pumps so I can have the right turn over rate. With the 2 pumps and if my return was 10x I would think my total turn over will be close to 30x with head pressure lose. Do you think my flow estimate is close?

justingraham · Jun 1, 2017

Upstartreefer said:
Yes I will have 2 vectras. I am planning on this tank to be a mixed reef but, mostly sps. The L1 is rated at 3100 gph at 0 head. I would have to have 2 pumps so I can have the right turn over rate. With the 2 pumps and if my return was 10x I would think my total turn over will be close to 30x with head pressure lose. Do you think my flow estimate is close?

If running the vectra as a closed loop there is no head pressure. So depending on ur pipe size (which I recomend getting the schedule 40 adapters) u can get close to 3000 gallons a piece.
And I don't know about turn over rate what's ur estimated gallons? I think that's roughly a 225 dimension wise.

Also I would still recomend either two wavs or a gyre on the back wall as I think u said 8 outlets is a lot but you would still want more in linear flow. Hence why I also recomend sea swirls.

Also if ya want take a look at my build thread and ask questions there to as I believe the flow in it is the best bang for the buc. And you could do the same thing as me only difference beimg double what I have

Grey Guy · Aug 28, 2017

Brew12 said:
At the risk of opening up a can of worms, there are plenty of great reasons to go with a DC pump. Energy savings are not one of them.

Really? Do you mean you don't care about your electric bill. I went from A.C. To D.C. Pump and now run at 60 Watts, instead of 250 or more, with approximately the same water flow.

Grey Guy · Aug 28, 2017

I think, today the issue is not closed loop verses powerheads, but rather closed loop vs. having a sump. I can't think of any reason to have a closed loop and a sump. I am running a closed loop in a purposely low flow tank for mushrooms. I wouldn't try SPS without a sump.

DeniseAndy · Aug 28, 2017

Grey Guy said:
I think, today the issue is not closed loop verses powerheads, but rather closed loop vs. having a sump. I can't think of any reason to have a closed loop and a sump. I am running a closed loop in a purposely low flow tank for mushrooms. I wouldn't try SPS without a sump.

I ran a closed loop and a sump. The sump contained all equipment such as protein skimmer, ca rx, heaters, algae scrubber, etc. The closed loop replaces the powerheads for flow, not the sump for filtration. I am confused on your comment. Not trying to be a jerk, just confused.

Brew12 · Aug 28, 2017

Grey Guy said:
Really? Do you mean you don't care about your electric bill. I went from A.C. To D.C. Pump and now run at 60 Watts, instead of 250 or more, with approximately the same water flow.

I do care about my electric bill, but I also understand it.

If you had an AC pump running 250W and you got similar flow from a 60W DC pump, you started with a very bad AC pump. I have a Sicce Syncra Pro that has a max flow of 1500gph @110W. I'm guessing that is ballpark flow wise to your 60W DC pump. Your controller losses should add around 20% to your actual load which in this case would put the 60W pump to a total of 72W. To make the math easier, I'll go with a difference of 40 watts between the two pumps.

40W *24hrs=960
960*30.5days= 29,280 total Watt hours difference, or 29.3kwh (kilowatt hours)
29.3kwh * $0.16/kwh = $4.69 per month of savings.

In this example I used the absolute best case for a DC pump, which would be the two motors placed in a tub and pushing water. As head pressure goes up in an AC pump, flow goes down, and power use goes down. In a DC pump, power used is set by the controller.

In reality, a DC pump would likely save me $3 per month or less on my power bill, best case. I will gladly pay an extra $3/month for the increased reliability that comes from not having a controller.

Grey Guy · Aug 28, 2017

Brew12 said:
I do care about my electric bill, but I also understand it.

If you had an AC pump running 250W and you got similar flow from a 60W DC pump, you started with a very bad AC pump. I have a Sicce Syncra Pro that has a max flow of 1500gph @110W. I'm guessing that is ballpark flow wise to your 60W DC pump. Your controller losses should add around 20% to your actual load which in this case would put the 60W pump to a total of 72W. To make the math easier, I'll go with a difference of 40 watts between the two pumps.

40W *24hrs=960
960*30.5days= 29,280 total Watt hours difference, or 29.3kwh (kilowatt hours)
29.3kwh * $0.16/kwh = $4.69 per month of savings.

In this example I used the absolute best case for a DC pump, which would be the two motors placed in a tub and pushing water. As head pressure goes up in an AC pump, flow goes down, and power use goes down. In a DC pump, power used is set by the controller.

In reality, a DC pump would likely save me $3 per month or less on my power bill, best case. I will gladly pay an extra $3/month for the increased reliability that comes from not having a controller.

Awesome. I love this stuff. Thank you for all the great info. Maybe this winter I will switch back to my Iwaki.

Grey Guy · Aug 28, 2017

DeniseAndy said:
I ran a closed loop and a sump. The sump contained all equipment such as protein skimmer, ca rx, heaters, algae scrubber, etc. The closed loop replaces the powerheads for flow, not the sump for filtration. I am confused on your comment. Not trying to be a jerk, just confused.

I just think it would be easier to circulate water from the tank and through the sump. How do you circulate water between your display tank and your sump, if you are using a closed loop? If this can be done easily enough, maybe I'll add a sump.