To mud or not to mud that is the question...

Russ265 · Jul 11, 2016

ZJedi945 said:
This is the kind of feedback I was looking for! Sadly enough....

yeah.. sorry
But with all the hype, you would figure to see a ton of before and after photos using this product. They just dont exist.
The people vetting the products would already have nice colors with or without it imho.

Or people pulling the product would cry about crappy colors.

good luck

Feet4Fish · Jul 11, 2016

Russ265 said:
Used it in my 220. Got my tank all cloudy. Pulled it after 6 months. Did nothing and I spent $300 on the bags for this test.

If you want to try a cheaper method, get some home depot play sand made of quartz, go out in to a forest and scrape up some dirt, churn it in the sand and place in sump. voila! same thing.

Never has clouded my tank from day one. Make sure you wear it in the tray before you put it in your sump also make sure the sump flow is not too high.

Russ265 · Jul 11, 2016

soffutt said:
Never has clouded my tank from day one. Make sure you wear it in the tray before you put it in your sump also make sure the sump flow is not too high.

If anyone has ever used miracle mud, they will be familiar with this scene....

Bpb · Jul 11, 2016

Yeah my tank looked like that for about 12 hours and by then it was crystal clear as if nothing happened

Feet4Fish · Jul 11, 2016

soffutt said:
Never has clouded my tank from day one. Make sure you wear it in the tray before you put it in your sump also make sure the sump flow is not too high.

I meant wet it in the tray. Actually saturate it in the tray before adding it to your sump. The only time it clouded my tank is when I turned the flow up too high over it. Bottom line is that even if it clouds your tank it will resolve readily enough.

ZJedi945 · Jul 11, 2016

Russ265 said:
yeah.. sorry
But with all the hype, you would figure to see a ton of before and after photos using this product. They just dont exist.
The people vetting the products would already have nice colors with or without it imho.

Or people pulling the product would cry about crappy colors.

good luck

I totally agree with you there is no before and after pictures at all! This is one of the reasons I wanted to start this thread a place where people can share their take on it. First hand experience is key though.

I do have to say this. I bought my current tank, a used 65 gallon that had a EcoSystems sump. Now I was told that it was some sort of mud in it but he didn't know what brand. I never changed it or anything just basically used it as a deep sand bed because being new in the hobby then. Now looking about on it I think that is what kept my tank from ever experiencing a crash or major algae bloom. Only recently have I started to have a few issues with algae. It's been about 4 years since I started the tank. So that is what is pulling me to use it, yet I have doubts about it.

Oldreefer44 · Jul 11, 2016

I started using it based on pro use information from those that have a lot more experience than I do. I have used it for several years with no issues but still cant tell you if it really does anything. Doubt there will ever be any verifiable scientific proof one way or the other. That being said, I have had a very stable system all that time so I'm sticking with what I know works for me.

saltyfilmfolks · Jul 11, 2016

ZJedi945 said:
I totally agree with you there is no before and after pictures at all! This is one of the reasons I wanted to start this thread a place where people can share their take on it. First hand experience is key though.

I do have to say this. I bought my current tank, a used 65 gallon that had a EcoSystems sump. Now I was told that it was some sort of mud in it but he didn't know what brand. I never changed it or anything just basically used it as a deep sand bed because being new in the hobby then. Now looking about on it I think that is what kept my tank from ever experiencing a crash or major algae bloom. Only recently have I started to have a few issues with algae. It's been about 4 years since I started the tank. So that is what is pulling me to use it, yet I have doubts about it.

there are also few before and after pics of people using hob fuges too.

heres a thought. If you were to diy a fuge to grow plants with roots. You would get a sub-strait the plants an easily root in. then add stuff to augment the soil to help them a long like you would a planter box or a backyard garden. in that soil you just created for those plants, true sand is a better choice than oolite as the drainage and flow is low in oolite, and its easier for the plant to take root. So Sand is better. Play sand is a better choice aragonite for the same reason but finer grains would be better than large coarse, but would work fine, but is not the method.

The eco system method is full of snake oil, yes, but so are most reef products (or any really) . You buy $500 lights with no par or lux data dont you? Do we really think the New AI is HD?(1920x1080?)

The eco system method is based on the theory of adding live plants to take up exess nutrients and toxins. In other hobbies this method is employed to purify water in backyard gardens that grow food.
It is not a DSB. The system method actually calls for using one specific type of plant too. Adding a skimmer to the system is actually called the Planette method. Neither of these are the Berlin method.
getting a cloudy tank is not the method's fault. youd get a cloudy tank for longer adding an oolite dsb unless you were really careful.

so yea IMO the method works but its based on(now) similar less expensive methods. I wonder that Planette jumped on it years ago at there was no other comparable method and he was a great Spokesmodel with a name. Personally I dont begrudge him that as we all need a paycheck and its more honest than selling diet pills or triton tests to a guy with a 14g bio cube...

After long long research on eco system and DSB I added sugar an oolite with Fiji mud to my DSB in the fuge. its fine. All the tanks I researched that were very old and successful(stable) had a refugium and a dsb somewhere in the system to create a natural stability, Or were cleaned regularly(Paul B).

thats my .02. but im going to change it to .39, cuz you cant buy anything with .39 either.

ZJedi945 · Jul 11, 2016

saltyfilmfolks said:
there are also few before and after pics of people using hob fuges too.

heres a thought. If you were to diy a fuge to grow plants with roots. You would get a sub-strait the plants an easily root in. then add stuff to augment the soil to help them a long like you would a planter box or a backyard garden. in that soil you just created for those plants, true sand is a better choice than oolite as the drainage and flow is low in oolite, and its easier for the plant to take root. So Sand is better. Play sand is a better choice aragonite for the same reason but finer grains would be better than large coarse, but would work fine, but is not the method.

The eco system method is full of snake oil, yes, but so are most reef products (or any really) . You buy $500 lights with no par or lux data dont you? Do we really think the New AI is HD?(1920x1080?)

The eco system method is based on the theory of adding live plants to take up exess nutrients and toxins. In other hobbies this method is employed to purify water in backyard gardens that grow food.
It is not a DSB. The system method actually calls for using one specific type of plant too. Adding a skimmer to the system is actually called the Planette method. Neither of these are the Berlin method.
getting a cloudy tank is not the method's fault. youd get a cloudy tank for longer adding an oolite dsb unless you were really careful.

so yea IMO the method works but its based on(now) similar less expensive methods. I wonder that Planette jumped on it years ago at there was no other comparable method and he was a great Spokesmodel with a name. Personally I dont begrudge him that as we all need a paycheck and its more honest than selling diet pills or triton tests to a guy with a 14g bio cube...

After long long research on eco system and DSB I added sugar an oolite with Fiji mud to my DSB in the fuge. its fine. All the tanks I researched that were very old and successful(stable) had a refugium and a dsb somewhere in the system to create a natural stability, Or were cleaned regularly(Paul B).

thats my .02. but im going to change it to .39, cuz you cant buy anything with .39 either.

Wow this is the kind of stuff I was looking for!
It is more about the method to the system as a whole and not just the product from what I understood. Yes, the product may help with certain areas, but should not be the only thing evaluated.

saltyfilmfolks · Jul 11, 2016

ZJedi945 said:
Wow this is the kind of stuff I was looking for!
It is more about the method to the system as a whole and not just the product from what I understood. Yes, the product may help with certain areas, but should not be the only thing evaluated.

yea exactly. And the only real decision is is do you or can you spent the money on it and is that the experiment you want to do on the system,.

ZJedi945 · Jul 11, 2016

saltyfilmfolks said:
yea exactly. And the only real decision is is do you or can you spent the money on it and is that the experiment you want to do on the system,.

When one says experiment on a new systems it makes you flinch a bit. As of right now this is right next to an algae scrubber, can't do both but would like to do one or the other. For some reason I like the more natural things.

mardoon · Jul 11, 2016

I use Mericle mud in refuguim.

ludnix · Jul 11, 2016

saltyfilmfolks said:
heres a thought. If you were to diy a fuge to grow plants with roots. You would get a sub-strait the plants an easily root in. then add stuff to augment the soil to help them a long like you would a planter box or a backyard garden. in that soil you just created for those plants, true sand is a better choice than oolite as the drainage and flow is low in oolite, and its easier for the plant to take root. So Sand is better. Play sand is a better choice aragonite for the same reason but finer grains would be better than large coarse, but would work fine, but is not the method.

I don't understand, are you saying play sand is a better substrate than oolitic sand in a refugium because it drains better?

saltyfilmfolks · Jul 11, 2016

ZJedi945 said:
When one says experiment on a new systems it makes you flinch a bit. As of right now this is right next to an algae scrubber, can't do both but would like to do one or the other. For some reason I like the more natural things.

Im pretty much all natural too. And I do like to make people flinch. But choosing an algae scrubber over a refugium is an experiment to see what works better. same for t5 led mh.
So your doing the right thing. Research the methods most comfortable for you. and go with it.

saltyfilmfolks · Jul 11, 2016

ludnix said:
I don't understand, are you saying play sand is a better substrate than oolitic sand in a refugium because it drains better?

No. Im saying in the ecosystem method using rooting plants(a calupa), silica based beach sand is better for those plants to root in. a fine sugar aragonite may work too i suppose.
point being they made a planter box to get great growth for a specific plant.

for a true DSB (in a refugium or tank) finer grained argonite(crushed coral) sand is usually better. flow in a DSB is provided by worms, snails and bugs. a dsb is more about micro algaes.
Ron Shimek DSB http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html