Torch and Xenia "shriveling"

[Steve Jones]

Over the last week or so I've noticed my Torch and Xenia shriveling a good deal. Some of the Xenia is shriveling a little. Some a lot. A video is attached. It's night mode so they are kind of shut down for that - but hopefully you can see the difference. Parameters as of 10 minutes ago right before shot the video:

Temp: 78.5
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: out of reagent so couldn't check
Calcium: 420
Alkalinity: 8.3
Magnesium: 1400
Salinity: 1.025
pH: 7.5
Copper: 0

pH is a little low.

They were doing well with flow before. Not been moved.

Added a Coral Banded Shrimp 3 weeks ago. Other than that, no major changes or fluctuations.

Ideas?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hmmm. Slightly low ph should be looked at. Mainly to see if it drops more at night. And you could use to feed more.
Are you running GFO or a Refugium?
How old is the tank? Lots of new corals or large additions of Chato over a month or more and create competition and also lower available nutrients in the water.

 

[Tori]

Following! My torch looked like that before I lost it. I was having massive PH swings before I ran an air tube from my skimmer outside. I'm thinking the large swings did it in.

 

[Steve Jones]

Hmmm. Slightly low ph should be looked at. Mainly to see if it drops more at night. And you could use to feed more.
Are you running GFO or a Refugium?
How old is the tank? Lots of new corals or large additions of Chato over a month or more and create competition and also lower available nutrients in the water.

It's a 29 gallon BioCube. I have the inTank media and fuge baskets. Media has ChemiPure Blue and Purigen and floss. Fuge basket has chaeto - not a lot. Maybe size of a fist. Have had this filtration setup for 4 months. Aquarium has been up for a total of 8 months.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea personally I'd pull chem filters if you don't need it. The Chato will regulate it's uptake it self so I find it a more reliable means of export.

 

[Steve Jones]

Yea personally I'd pull chem filters if you don't need it. The Chato will regulate it's uptake it self so I find it a more reliable means of export.

I'n not willing to make such a major change on a small system that's been running very stable for months. I don't see how chem vs chaeto could be related to this issue suddenly.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

That's cool.
I don't believe it's sudden. I suspect Its been slowly stripping the nutrients out of the water Colum and now beginning to show. Fwiw GFO will eventually pull Po off of and out of rock and sand that it is bound to but it takes time. It's a common method in curing live rock or rehabbing used live rock that is leaching Po.
With the current Po levels at 0 many would be concerned There is not enough nutrients in the water for the coral. As the water is the only means of transport for nutrients to the animal and the effiency at which GFO removes it from the water I assumed it was the most likely cause. Xenia generally thrive in what most would call dirty water so a nutrient poor system would have difficulty sustaining them. Chato as well uses Po and no and directly competes with other organisms as well. Many in ULNS tanks can't and don't use refugiums as there is not enough food to go around and sustain the Algaes for this reason.
Could be other issues though too.

 

[helen ann]

I run a Biocube and ran the same setup that you have ...
inTank media rack with ChemiPure Blue, Purigen, floss
inTank rack for chaeto

I found that I was unable to grow anything and was having issues keeping the system stable and the Chem was pulling to much of the good stuff out that my corals needed.

IMO think all that stuff might be a little over-kill for such a small system but I have seen people run the cube with this and have success just want to offer you another solution

inTank media rack has filter floss on top and MarinePure Ceramic Biomedia 1 1/2” Spheres in all other chambers
inTank rack with chaeto

 

[Pg513]

You need some readings of nitrates. Zero is not good for softies and LPS

 

[Steve Jones]

That's cool.
I don't believe it's sudden. I suspect Its been slowly stripping the nutrients out of the water Colum and now beginning to show. Fwiw GFO will eventually pull Po off of and out of rock and sand that it is bound to but it takes time. It's a common method in curing live rock or rehabbing used live rock that is leaching Po.
With the current Po levels at 0 many would be concerned There is not enough nutrients in the water for the coral. As the water is the only means of transport for nutrients to the animal and the effiency at which GFO removes it from the water I assumed it was the most likely cause. Xenia generally thrive in what most would call dirty water so a nutrient poor system would have difficulty sustaining them. Chato as well uses Po and no and directly competes with other organisms as well. Many in ULNS tanks can't and don't use refugiums as there is not enough food to go around and sustain the Algaes for this reason.
Could be other issues though too.

OK. Still learning after 8 months. What is "Po"? Phosphates?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yes.

OK. Still learning after 8 months. What is "Po"? Phosphates?

 

[twilliard]

Indeed sounds like a lack of free carbons and no3
They do not like the water clear of these.

 

[Steve Jones]

Yes.

That's what I thought. What threw me was where you wrote "With the current Po levels at 0 many would be concerned...". I never wrote that the Phosphates were '0". I wrote I was out of reagent so I couldn't check that parameter. So I was trying to figure out which of my "0" parameters you were calling "Po". I'll have reagents in hand by Friday.

So is the suggestion then to pull the ChemiPure and the Purigen both? Or just one or the other?

What other option are there for bumping Nitrates and keeping Phosphates low? Looking online I see some say heavier feeding, or add more fish, slowing down water changes, etc.

 

[twilliard]

The only issue with the more fish or more food is in return you will also increase po4

 

[WetWhistle]

If this was my tank i would look at it being to clean. I would take out the chemical filtration and let things slowly rise. Just keep an eye on it and test your nutrients after a few days to make sure if you are worried. I would not make any more changes during this time. You should see them responding within a few days if this is the cause. Xenia especially need dissolved organics as a primary way of gaining their food source as they are weak feeders when it comes to particulate matter. To low a level and they shrink. You could also try upping your feedings a little and leave the media in. You would be surprised how well your corals will do after removing chemical media and how well a tank can maintain low levels without it in some situations.

 

[Irsug1]

Imo pull the purigen. I believe chemipure has similar properties already.
I only run chemipure on my aio.

 

[Steve Jones]

I've got three fish (the last to go into this tank) in QT set to go in tank this Sunday. So I may try to feed a little heavy til then and then see what happens after fish added. I also have some Seachem Phytoplankton I've used before. Would it help any to dose with that?

 

[twilliard]

There would be no key benifit to adding phytoplankton

Here is a good read for phytoplankton

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

That's what I thought. What threw me was where you wrote "With the current Po levels at 0 many would be concerned...". I never wrote that the Phosphates were '0". I wrote I was out of reagent so I couldn't check that parameter. So I was trying to figure out which of my "0" parameters you were calling "Po". I'll have reagents in hand by Friday.

So is the suggestion then to pull the ChemiPure and the Purigen both? Or just one or the other?

What other option are there for bumping Nitrates and keeping Phosphates low? Looking online I see some say heavier feeding, or add more fish, slowing down water changes, etc.

no sweat and I apologize for not being clearer. I pretty much knew with that chemical filtration method and the age of the tank your Po is at zero.
One of the huge myths is in keeping the No and Po at zero. You actually need detectable amounts of those nutrients for the organisims to feed on. Some corals actually do best under very high amounts of those. Xenia actually being a cliche in that respect. You may have read about "bleaching" where too much light is being blamed, it in most cases is too few nutrients in the water are not able to sustain photosynthesis due to poor available nutrients under high lighting and become pale, its malnutrition.

So many recommend going slow, one reason is, what you do today like over feeding lets say, you wont see the results of that for a couple weeks. In your case the slow dose of GFO has slowly removed nutrients. So go back the other way slowly.
@WetWhistle You nailed it!

If this was my tank i would look at it being to clean. I would take out the chemical filtration and let things slowly rise. Just keep an eye on it and test your nutrients after a few days to make sure if you are worried. I would not make any more changes during this time. You should see them responding within a few days if this is the cause. Xenia especially need dissolved organics as a primary way of gaining their food source as they are weak feeders when it comes to particulate matter. To low a level and they shrink. You could also try upping your feedings a little and leave the media in. You would be surprised how well your corals will do after removing chemical media and how well a tank can maintain low levels without it in some situations.

GFO a refugium are means of removing EXCESS nutrients. using them esp gfo removes all of them if gone unchecked. Its my main gripe about gfo, its always popularly recommended but in most cases unnecessary. A refugium chato etc regulates itself a bit like corals, if theres not enough food, it wont grow it wont strip the Po.

so me yes I would pull both, run carbon only, feed normally and keep a loose eye on the parameters. there's no more immediate solution beyond that. the phyto is just good for the tank, so use it.slowly

 

[Steve Jones]

Great! Thank you all for the tips!