Torch and Xenia "shriveling"

[WetWhistle]

no sweat and I apologize for not being clearer. I pretty much knew with that chemical filtration method and the age of the tank your Po is at zero.
One of the huge myths is in keeping the No and Po at zero. You actually need detectable amounts of those nutrients for the organisims to feed on. Some corals actually do best under very high amounts of those. Xenia actually being a cliche in that respect. You may have read about "bleaching" where too much light is being blamed, it in most cases is too few nutrients in the water are not able to sustain photosynthesis due to poor available nutrients under high lighting and become pale, its malnutrition.

So many recommend going slow, one reason is, what you do today like over feeding lets say, you wont see the results of that for a couple weeks. In your case the slow dose of GFO has slowly removed nutrients. So go back the other way slowly.
@WetWhistle You nailed it!


GFO a refugium are means of removing EXCESS nutrients. using them esp gfo removes all of them if gone unchecked. Its my main gripe about gfo, its always popularly recommended but in most cases unnecessary. A refugium chato etc regulates itself a bit like corals, if theres not enough food, it wont grow it wont strip the Po.

so me yes I would pull both, run carbon only, feed normally and keep a loose eye on the parameters. there's no more immediate solution beyond that. the phyto is just good for the tank, so use it.slowly

I also think GFO is to aggressive for everyone to use as well. I recommend usage based on the following. If you have high levels that keep raising fast it is good to use at the very least temporally. If you have low and slow levels it is to aggressive and you should not and should look at some like a PO filter pad or macro algae. I also would pull both and just run carbon as i like to use as little chemicals as possible and prefer the natural approach. I am all about a refugium chato or caulerpa doing my nutrient export for me that is for sure. Chemicals have there place and time but i find most people don't need to run them constantly just as a temp polishing of the water every once in a while.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I also think GFO is to aggressive for everyone to use as well. I recommend usage based on the following. If you have high levels that keep raising fast it is good to use at the very least temporally. If you have low and slow levels it is to aggressive and you should not and should look at some like a PO filter pad or macro algae. I also would pull both and just run carbon as i like to use as little chemicals as possible and prefer the natural approach. I am all about a refugium chato or caulerpa doing my nutrient export for me that is for sure. Chemicals have there place and time but i find most people don't need to run them constantly just as a temp polishing of the water every once in a while.

Its kinda funny and most don't notice this, but Randy Holmes Farley, "The Chemist", does the exact same thing .

 

[Cary Hover]

Get rid of the Xenia waving palms before they take over your tank. I have a 450 and had to break 2/3's of it down and torch them off the rocks. Once they get established they take over like wild fire.

 

[Steve Jones]

Get rid of the Xenia waving palms before they take over your tank. I have a 450 and had to break 2/3's of it down and torch them off the rocks. Once they get established they take over like wild fire.

I trim them back every couple of weeks so they don't get out of control.

 

[WetWhistle]

Its kinda funny and most don't notice this, but Randy Holmes Farley, "The Chemist", does the exact same thing .

It is good advice to follow. lol

 

[WetWhistle]

So OP I was thinking as you seem hesitant to make some changes as you have your routine down and you don't want to cause issue. (Nothing wrong with that) Here are a few other option. Why not do a on off cycle for your media and run it for 3 days on and off for 4 or do a weekly on off? This will allow a few days for things to build up a little yet not to the point that it will cause an issue. You can also just reduce the amount of media that you are using so it is not as aggressive at removing but allows for a little to stay in the water for corals to use. I think you should remove the media and test your levels so you can get a base line as to what is going on and how long it takes to build up and then you can do a modified use of media to fit your needs instead of running it constantly. Once you have a base line you can do a informed decision on the approach that you want to take. I myself would remove the media fully, change nothing else and see how the corals respond and how things build up. If you do regular water changes a temp thing like this should not cause issue till you implement your final plan. You will have to make that decision as you know the input and export of your tank better then anyone else. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Steve Jones]

So OP I was thinking as you seem hesitant to make some changes as you have your routine down and you don't want to cause issue. (Nothing wrong with that) Here are a few other option. Why not do a on off cycle for your media and run it for 3 days on and off for 4 or do a weekly on off? This will allow a few days for things to build up a little yet not to the point that it will cause an issue. You can also just reduce the amount of media that you are using so it is not as aggressive at removing but allows for a little to stay in the water for corals to use. I think you should remove the media and test your levels so you can get a base line as to what is going on and how long it takes to build up and then you can do a modified use of media to fit your needs instead of running it constantly. Once you have a base line you can do a informed decision on the approach that you want to take. I myself would remove the media fully, change nothing else and see how the corals respond and how things build up. If you do regular water changes a temp thing like this should not cause issue till you implement your final plan. You will have to make that decision as you know the input and export of your tank better then anyone else. Just my 2 cents.

Hesitant, as I am just coming off a 76 day fallow period after Brooks ransacked my DT. Lost all but one fish. Am in the process of restocking and the last added fish will go in this Sunday.

The corals thrived while tank was going fallow. I added some food to the tank every week or so for the cleaner crew and corals. The Xenia and Torch started looking bad about 2 weeks after adding the first fish back in. Added a Pajama Cardinalfish - the surviror of the Brooks outbreak, and 2 new Ocellaris Clowns. Never see anything bothering the corals.

I went ahead and pulled the Purigen and the ChemiPure from the inTank "tower". I am "regenerating" the Purigen and have an unopened ChemiPure in my stock so I can throw them back in if needed. I guess now it's just a water testing and waiting game? Who woulda thought that clean could be bad? LOL

 

[WetWhistle]

I am always hesitant to make big changes as I like to think things through before jumping to conclusions and make sweeping changes so no worry. Nothing wrong with being cautious. Especially with what you just went through. In time when the tank matures things will settle out. Just watch your tank and take your time.

If you have pulled it play the waiting game and test. you should notice a slight increase of diatoms on the glass if it is working. The time it takes to grow will probably be off by a few days short. At one time it was hard to believe that clean would cause issues. lol

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hesitant, as I am just coming off a 76 day fallow period after Brooks ransacked my DT. Lost all but one fish. Am in the process of restocking and the last added fish will go in this Sunday.

The corals thrived while tank was going fallow. I added some food to the tank every week or so for the cleaner crew and corals. The Xenia and Torch started looking bad about 2 weeks after adding the first fish back in. Added a Pajama Cardinalfish - the surviror of the Brooks outbreak, and 2 new Ocellaris Clowns. Never see anything bothering the corals.

I went ahead and pulled the Purigen and the ChemiPure from the inTank "tower". I am "regenerating" the Purigen and have an unopened ChemiPure in my stock so I can throw them back in if needed. I guess now it's just a water testing and waiting game? Who woulda thought that clean could be bad? LOL

Nature by nature is actually kinda dirty.
And we all here spend a LOT of time and money on animals that eat poop.

You actually nailed it. At this point in your tank life with the new Fish coming I would have been totally hesitant to make a change that big too. I would have just slowly reduced the amount of both or the course of a month by 25%. Easy math to Rember for me is key. And the do the same on addition. At my tank size I measure in grams or tea spoons. GFO is quote strong.

Congrats on the new fish Too. Been there. Yer gonna get some algae soon as the cycle catches up to the new bio load. So don't freak out on the new numbers coming your way. A lil bio booster and more light on the refugium you should be all good.

 

[Steve Jones]

Ok. Been 12 days since removed the Purigen and ChemiPure. Corals not doing much better. It looks like the torch has pretty much died and some of the Xenia. The bubble seems to have improved a bit. But others look a little more peaked. Video attached. Current parameters are:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - .6ppm
Phosphate - .03ppm
Calcium - 430ppm
Alkalinity - 8.4 dKH
PH - 8.0
Magnesium - 1360ppm
Salinity - 1.025 d SG
Copper - 0ppm

Any ideas / thoughts?

 

[WetWhistle]

Your levels are still at 0 so you should up your feeding a little. Just don't add to much more and watch out for signs of algae bloom. No point in causing a bloom trying to fit an issue.

 

[Steve Jones]

Your levels are still at 0 so you should up your feeding a little. Just don't add to much more and watch out for signs of algae bloom. No point in causing a bloom trying to fit an issue.

Not everything still at zero. Don't think I want Nitrates and Phosphates going much higher.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea ok this is a mind blower.
You've checked for bad magnets? Rusty nails the really dumb stuff ?
There's food in the tank. Green on the glass. Stuff on the sand.
The maybe of turning down the whites if your led for more blue.
But it's Xenia. They def don't like low Po.

It's funny I'm thinking back on all the ways I've killed corals.
I guess I haven't killed enough LPS yet

[HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG] @Sabellafella Any insights.?

 

[Sabellafella]

Ok. Been 12 days since removed the Purigen and ChemiPure. Corals not doing much better. It looks like the torch has pretty much died and some of the Xenia. The bubble seems to have improved a bit. But others look a little more peaked. Video attached. Current parameters are:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - .6ppm
Phosphate - .03ppm
Calcium - 430ppm
Alkalinity - 8.4 dKH
PH - 8.0
Magnesium - 1360ppm
Salinity - 1.025 d SG
Copper - 0ppm

Any ideas / thoughts?

I acually had a silver xenia colony that ive had for years die on me a few days ago for no reason at all. Everything looks fine in your tank, your torch doesnt have brown jelly so its not a dirty water quality issue. If it was alk related that pagoda cup wouldve had burn spots on it long before the torch heads would reject. You dont know for sure, but stuff like very high p04(or low) low magnesium, even it being a indo torch (hense the mariculture disk base) can result in head loss like this. I cant keep not one cement mounted euphyllia like that. I would leave it for now unless you want to get rid of it. Theres no infection, so its not water quality and its deffinitly not flow or light related. Youd be suprized, even if theres a slither of tissue left it could bounce back better then ever. As for xenia, who knows, its a mystery. All the other stalks look great! I would cut it off the rock because that clear stuff at the base is an infection
@saltyfilmfolks with rusting magnets euphyllia are usually the first to go lolol

 

[Steve Jones]

I acually had a silver xenia colony that ive had for years die on me a few days ago for no reason at all. Everything looks fine in your tank, your torch doesnt have brown jelly so its not a dirty water quality issue. If it was alk related that pagoda cup wouldve had burn spots on it long before the torch heads would reject. You dont know for sure, but stuff like very high p04(or low) low magnesium, even it being a indo torch (hense the mariculture disk base) can result in head loss like this. I cant keep not one cement mounted euphyllia like that. I would leave it for now unless you want to get rid of it. Theres no infection, so its not water quality and its deffinitly not flow or light related. Youd be suprized, even if theres a slither of tissue left it could bounce back better then ever. As for xenia, who knows, its a mystery. All the other stalks look great! I would cut it off the rock because that clear stuff at the base is an infection
@saltyfilmfolks with rusting magnets euphyllia are usually the first to go lolol

Not sure what "clear stuff" you are referring to? Thanks for all the insight!

 

[WetWhistle]

There is always a fine line to making changes to help a coral\ causing issues to others and it is a precarious balance. I found from experience the most common causes for torch\Xenia issues are lack of food or to low of nutrients. Those two are tied together especially for Xenia as they are weak active filter feeders and get the bulk of their feeding from dissolved organics, phosphates etc and light and not through active feeding like soft, SPS or LPS. So with them if nutrients are lacking they can't make up energy needs very easily by finding other active means of feeding. If nutrients are low they have a hard time increasing the density of zooxanthellae because that requires nutrients to do so. They do sometimes get Xenia nudibranch eating them that are very hard to see but that doesn't happen often. But it is possible so as a precaution look over your colonies. Check out the link below for ID.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/xenia-mimicing-nudibranchs

LPS like a torch like a little dirtier water or they need to make up for the deficit by active feeding or increasing light, they are usually tolerant as long as the parameters are within range. Active feeding seems to be the preferred method. Assuming they are getting the proper flow and light Torch are not particularly prone to parasites praying on them and if it was bacterial you can clearly see the brown jelly if that was the cause. Alk can cause issue but if it was something like that other stony corals would show signs as well. All your water parameters are in tolerance so it is not very likely one of them.

Since you removed the media and nothing really changed just in case I would look over your tank for any pests that could be causing an issue, Fish\inverts picking on the heads or corals. Also check for a green boring algae for the LPS that is in the calcium skeleton as this can kill them as it bores through but is not very common that I have seen. You can tell by a bright green color and what looks like holes. I seen you had a LPS top right that seems to be doing better then the one on the substrate. The one higher up could be getting just enough more light then the lower one so the lack of nutrients could be made up for it. You could try moving it up a little with supplemental target feeding.

http://aquariumcoraldiseases.weebly.com/green-boring-algae.html

 

[Humblefish]

If you ever figure out what killed your xenia, please let the rest of us know...

 

[WetWhistle]

If you ever figure out what killed your xenia, please let the rest of us know...

Good luck with that. lol

 

[Steve Jones]

Ok. Parameters are just about the same. But now this guy looks like he's kicking off. Argh!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ok. Parameters are just about the same. But now this guy looks like he's kicking off. Argh!

lol ARGH is right. Im having issues with mine as well. My smaller clove polyps are growing like weeds. They however are in a flow zone that moves them. Im moving Mine to a more turbulent area. The less these movrein my tank the faster they have declined.