Undetectable Phosphates???

[Scott.h]

I agree that Rtn is something else. Zero po4 will result in issues. Such as pale sps and pinching lps. But what I see is a result of parameters, alk, or contaminates. Don't take my advise, but research it. If I'm you I'm making sure my RO water is 100% pure, I'm using a dosing pump to keep my numbers solid, I'm leaving the tank alone, dosing P To keep it detectable and stable, (n is fine) and keeping my alk at 7.0 day and night. If that doesn't work I'm letting the tank mature more, and repeat. My .02 cents

 

[Reeftang]

I agree that Rtn is something else. Zero po4 will result in issues. Such as pale sps and pinching lps. But what I see is a result of parameters, alk, or contaminates. Don't take my advise, but research it. If I'm you I'm making sure my RO water is 100% pure, I'm using a dosing pump to keep my numbers solid, I'm leaving the tank alone, dosing P To keep it detectable and stable, (n is fine) and keeping my alk at 7.0 day and night. If that doesn't work I'm letting the tank mature more, and repeat. My .02 cents

That's just the thing all my parameters are good my calcium is even to high at like 490 because my corals wasn't growing and consuming anything, the only thing I started realizing is that my phosphates is the only thing that's undetectable and not balanced with my nitrates and till now I thought hell yeah no phosphates isn't that what everyone wants, but now after going through 10 pcs of sps and non survived I started to think otherwise.

 

[madweazl]

My last three Triton results:

Again, it isn't your phosphates that caused the RTN.

 

[Scott.h]

That's just the thing all my parameters are good my calcium is even to high at like 490 because my corals wasn't growing and consuming anything, the only thing I started realizing is that my phosphates is the only thing that's undetectable and not balanced with my nitrates and till now I thought hell yeah no phosphates isn't that what everyone wants, but now after going through 10 pcs of sps and non survived I started to think otherwise.

its not uncommon for a tank to use less calcium with two part. One of my tanks when I was doing water changes I rarely added calcium. The water changes alone was sufficient, but I added alk twice a day. It depends of what kind of corals you have. Even my other sps tank now with triton method I've had to turn my calcium dosing head off as my calcium is 500 and my alk is 7. So look a different direction for the issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

its not uncommon for a tank to use less calcium with two part. One of my tanks when I was doing water changes I rarely added calcium. The water changes alone was sufficient, but I added alk twice a day. It depends of what kind of corals you have. Even my other sps tank now with triton method I've had to turn my calcium dosing head off as my calcium is 500 and my alk is 7. So look a different direction for the issue.

The demand ratio between calcium and alkalinity does not depend on the type of corals to the extent you are suggesting. They all use 18-20 ppm calcium for each 1 meq/L (1.4 dKH) of alkalinity.

If you are seeing a demand different from that, the most likely explanation is using a salt mix for water changes that does not match the tank and is messing with your apparent demand ratio.

Unless you have unusual things going on (such as a sulfur denitrator that depletes alkalinity), you tank will deplete calcium and alkalinity in about the ratio supplied by a well designed two part.

That said, not all two parts are properly designed for 1:1 dosing, not all dosing pumps deliver the expected amount, etc.

 

[Reeftang]

its not uncommon for a tank to use less calcium with two part. One of my tanks when I was doing water changes I rarely added calcium. The water changes alone was sufficient, but I added alk twice a day. It depends of what kind of corals you have. Even my other sps tank now with triton method I've had to turn my calcium dosing head off as my calcium is 500 and my alk is 7. So look a different direction for the issue.

I was not doseing with 2 part i was useing kalk up untill 2 weeks ago when i tested my water and saw that the calcium is very high so i figured let me stop it all the way and test the waters and get a feel what my corals consume and so far it has not gone down much i only have like 4 pisces soft coral and 2 small zoa colony's.

So how often should i be testing my alk to make sure they are stable, last 2 times i tested it was at 7.5.

 

[Scott.h]

The demand ratio between calcium and alkalinity does not depend on the type of corals to the extent you are suggesting. They all use 18-20 ppm calcium for each 1 meq/L (1.4 dKH) of alkalinity.

If you are seeing a demand different from that, the most likely explanation is using a salt mix for water changes that does not match the tank and is messing with your apparent demand ratio.

Unless you have unusual things going on (such as a sulfur denitrator that depletes alkalinity), you tank will deplete calcium and alkalinity in about the ratio supplied by a well designed two part.

That said, not all two parts are properly designed for 1:1 dosing, not all dosing pumps deliver the expected amount, etc.

That's interesting. I did not know that applied to soft corals. I understand the salt reference. When I was doing regular water changes in my mixed reef tank, my salt mix was roughly 450, and I kept my tank 420ish. Mostly softies, so I get the lower demand. My sps tank last June was 474 (triton) going into triton and last week was 534 (triton) with no water changes whatsoever. Even given the testing inaccuracies, that's a pretty big difference and higher then I want. I'm using a calibrated stepper motor pump and only triton 4 part for supplements. So with that said it would mean triton elements are not equally balanced. I'm fairly certain I could swap heads or tubes on the dos and still be higher with calcium a few months from now. For that matter every time I refill my containers it's a new 1000 ml bottle. Viewing my containers I can't visually see a difference in the full lines. All my tanks for years have typically ran that way. I'm not using anything fancy like a denigrator. So I'm baffled by what the real cause is, even though it's not a concern.

I was not doseing with 2 part i was useing kalk up untill 2 weeks ago when i tested my water and saw that the calcium is very high so i figured let me stop it all the way and test the waters and get a feel what my corals consume and so far it has not gone down much i only have like 4 pisces soft coral and 2 small zoa colony's.

So how often should i be testing my alk to make sure they are stable, last 2 times i tested it was at 7.5.

Test as often as you need to make sure it's stable all the time. At first it may be twice a day. I typically test alk the same time of the day every one to three days on my higher demand tank. My mixed reef, about once a week. But both tanks have dosing pumps and I'm pretty in tune to what's going on.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was not doseing with 2 part i was useing kalk up untill 2 weeks ago when i tested my water and saw that the calcium is very high so i figured let me stop it all the way and test the waters and get a feel what my corals consume and so far it has not gone down much i only have like 4 pisces soft coral and 2 small zoa colony's.

So how often should i be testing my alk to make sure they are stable, last 2 times i tested it was at 7.5.

Using limewater (kalkwasser) to maintian alkalinity will very slowly (over months) allow calcium to rise, especially if you are not doing water changes. Short term, high calcium must be from the salt mix because for limewater to have raised it, alk would necessarily bee very high. IMO, normal IO is a good salt mix to use with limewater because it starts at a lower calcium than many mixes.

If the alk is staying at 7.5 dKH, you need not measure it very often.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That's interesting. I did not know that applied to soft corals. I understand the salt reference. When I was doing regular water changes in my mixed reef tank, my salt mix was roughly 450, and I kept my tank 420ish. Mostly softies, so I get the lower demand. My sps tank last June was 474 (triton) going into triton and last week was 534 (triton) with no water changes whatsoever. Even given the testing inaccuracies, that's a pretty big difference and higher then I want. I'm using a calibrated stepper motor pump and only triton 4 part for supplements. So with that said it would mean triton elements are not equally balanced. I'm fairly certain I could swap heads or tubes on the dos and still be higher with calcium a few months from now. For that matter every time I refill my containers it's a new 1000 ml bottle. Viewing my containers I can't visually see a difference in the full lines. All my tanks for years have typically ran that way. I'm not using anything fancy like a denigrator. So I'm baffled by what the real cause is, even though it's not a concern.
Test as often as you need to make sure it's stable all the time. At first it may be twice a day. I typically test alk the same time of the day every one to three days on my higher demand tank. My mixed reef, about once a week. But both tanks have dosing pumps and I'm pretty in tune to what's going on.

What salt mix are you using?

I have not seen the exact concentrations for the Triton additives, so I cannot be sure if they are properly made for exact 1:1 dosing (or in their case, 1:2 since they use two alk parts). You are dosing all 4 parts equally, right?

That said, I'd dial back the calcium part, certainly, if you find it is pushing above 500 ppm and you have confidence in the calcium measurement.

 

[Scott.h]

What salt mix are you using?

I have not seen the exact concentrations for the Triton additives, so I cannot be sure if they are properly made for exact 1:1 dosing (or in their case, 1:2 since they use two alk parts). You are dosing all 4 parts equally, right?

That said, I'd dial back the calcium part, certainly, if you find it is pushing above 500 ppm and you have confidence in the calcium measurement.

The tank was started with tropic Marin pro reef. I did weekly water changes with that until June of last year. After my last water change (June) Salifert measured 440 and triton came back 474. I have been keeping my alk at 7.0 dosing all 4 bottles equally at 1:1:1:1 as they recommend. But I am also aware of their calcium readings being a little off, which I'm ok with. But yes, I've completely shut off dosing bottle #2 until my levels test with Salifert fall to around 420-440.

Are you aware of how high calcium can get before it causes an issue. At 530ish I don't see a problem.. maybe precipitation on pumps etc, but just wondering if high calcium has any known issues?

My other tank is a kalk triton hybrid. Referring to your previous post on kalk, when calcium gets high (also no water changes) would you suggest stopping kalk and just adding alkalinity.. triton alk or ash, whatever, until it balances again?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The only likely problem I am aware of with high calcium is slightly increased precipitation on pumps and such, but doubling calcium to 840 ppm is similar in that regard to a rise of pH from 8.1 to 8.4.

FWIW, some salt mixes had been formulated with 500+ ppm calcium.

 

[Reeftang]

I use a generic form of seachems product here:

http://www.seachem.com/flourish-phosporus.php

Keep in mind it only takes a few drops a day to keep it detectable in 100 gallons of water volume, depending on how much you feed the fish. I feed in the evenings and dose P in the morning to keep it consistent. Also keep an eye on the nitrates as I've found dosing N reduces P and vice versa. It will most definitely increase the algae film on the glass even at levels around .015. When I started daily dosing my tank also went though another little "ugly stage" but the tank will mature another step as it did in the beginning. It will mature and go away like usual. The important thing is the health of the corals.

I have experienced health issues when one element is way out of wack in relationship to the other, referring to the redfield ratio. I don't think they need to be 16:1 but I try to keep both in relation somewhat. I wouldn't worry about nitrates of 10. One of my tanks runs really well between .75 and 5, while another I've increased from 25 to 35ish because the corals were looking too pale. Obviously there are other factors that come into play that I don't understand, but I see what I see. 25, No algae, or film, starving corals. The other can be 3, algae film all over.

I think maturity plays a big part. Even if you have top notch equipment and do everything correct (with patients) from the start, a tank started with dry rock is not mature at one year imho.

Just got a bottle of the seachem phosphorus, the directions are not very clear, how much do I dose and do I dose daily?

 

[Scott.h]

Just got a bottle of the seachem phosphorus, the directions are not very clear, how much do I dose and do I dose daily?

Well when I started I over dosed (not that it hurt anything). Trying to figure it out. Every day consistency is important rather than chasing a number. I felt for awhile 1 ml roughy upped the dose .01 but I think that's too much. I'd raise it and then not add it for several days. I've learned to put some in every day and only test once a week, If that. How much water volume do you have? Also do you have a fuge? As that will consume. I can tell you I add (and have done this for many months) added between .2 and .3ml every morning in 100 gallons total water volume. Sometimes it tests zero sometimes .025 but I feel it's testing error more then anything. Having it register is more important then having it read zero, but with my filtration this works well in conjunction to the amount I feed at night. If I'm anywhere between.01 and .025 my corals look noticeably better and algae isn't a concern. It's all about consistency.

 

[cracker]

I have a 75 with around 90 gallons total. I started the seachem flourish . 1 ml & tested again some hours later & went from there. The amount I dose now will be different than yours for sure. Worked out pretty good .

Just got a bottle of the seachem phosphorus, the directions are not very clear, how much do I dose and do I dose daily?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

deleted

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Just got a bottle of the seachem phosphorus, the directions are not very clear, how much do I dose and do I dose daily?

Ignore any Seachem directions since it is not intended for a reef tank.

http://www.seachem.com/flourish-phosporus.php

"2.5 mL (half a cap) for each 80 L (20 US gallons)...raises phosphorus by 0.05 mg/L (0.15 mg/L phosphate)"

I'd start at 0.01 ppm phosphate added each day. So that is 2.5 mL per 300 gallons of tank volume.

 

[Reeftang]

Ignore any Seachem directions since it is not intended for a reef tank.

http://www.seachem.com/flourish-phosporus.php

"2.5 mL (half a cap) for each 80 L (20 US gallons)...raises phosphorus by 0.05 mg/L (0.15 mg/L phosphate)"

I'd start at 0.01 ppm phosphate added each day. So that is 2.5 mL per 300 gallons of tank volume.

Well I dosed first dose 2.5ml for 60gal tested next day and nothing, today I dosed 3ml didn't test yet but my corals look A lot more happy. I'll test tomorrow to find out where I'm at.

 

[Reeftang]

Well I dosed first dose 2.5ml for 60gal tested next day and nothing, today I dosed 3ml didn't test yet but my corals look A lot more happy. I'll test tomorrow to find out where I'm at.

So a few weeks ago I set up a cheato reactor and as soon as I did that I Got a phosphate reading of 0.04, about week ago I took it off line and again my phosphates are undetectable. What could be the reason for this?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So a few weeks ago I set up a cheato reactor and as soon as I did that I Got a phosphate reading of 0.04, about week ago I took it off line and again my phosphates are undetectable. What could be the reason for this?

I hate trying to explain supposedly unusual readings since I think most often they involve test errors.

But if we really want an explanation, it could be all sorts of things, including it had been low for a while and stayed low after removal of the chaeto. Could also be the chaeto was not growing but was slowly dying, releasing nutrients.

 

[Reeftang]

I hate trying to explain supposedly unusual readings since I think most often they involve test errors.

But if we really want an explanation, it could be all sorts of things, including it had been low for a while and stayed low after removal of the chaeto. Could also be the chaeto was not growing but was slowly dying, releasing nutrients.

Randy the cheato was certainly growing very rapidly sure not dying, I was thinking that maybe while I had The cheato running it was outcompeteing the algae in my tank, but I didn't know how to make sense of this whole thing so I figured I'll ask the experts. I'm getting very frustrated with my tank I can't figure out this phosphate issue. The reason I decided to remove the cheato reactor was because it started growing hair algae in it trapping detritus it was becoming a mess.