Unethical, Wrong or Ok?

[TheOne]

OP, Just curious what lights are you running?

 

[saltyhog]

Is your picture under your normal tank lighting or with white's only?

What color something is dependent on what spectrum it absorbs and what spectrum it reflects. If your picture is a reasonable light setting then I would be a little put out with the vendor. If there is no blue in your picture I'd like to see one with "normal" tank lighting which will have some blue in it.

 

[John3]

Most times a blue appearance on corals are from white spots under blue lighting. I don’t know if this is irresponsible or not. I have a torch I was wondering about and I have described it as a white tip but blue tip under blue lighting. That seems to confuse the crap out of people.

Most places selling corals online post coral descriptions as if you have an understanding of lighting. As said you can tell from the pic’s 99% of the time what the lighting is the pic was taken under. Fact is most corals pop dramatically under bluer lighting.

 

[Buffalou]

Having done this for some time now, I would chalk it up to a learning experience. Every trade show or swap meet I've ever attended 99% of everything is in a dark or dimly lit spot that had tanks that were predominately showing frags under blue light.

 

[Troy V]

This is a great thread!
It is amazing what a simple cheap yellow filter can do to sell a coral under actinic or higher kelvin light. It's all about the intention of the seller, and we the hobbyists ability to educate ourselves so we are not deceived.
14k MH w/Hydra 52 HD

Just Hydra 52 HDs

With a yellow filter

Can you tell??

 

[Mandelstam]

Thank you. Just to understand it better, then why are the tentacles showing up as green in all lights?

Not sure what you mean with all lights but the color your eyes see is a result, the finished mix, of the different parts of the spectra being reflected. You can get a resulting color by mixing other multiple colors. White is a perfect example.

 

[rogersb]

This is a great thread!
It is amazing what a simple cheap yellow filter can do to sell a coral under actinic or higher kelvin light. It's all about the intention of the seller, and we the hobbyists ability to educate ourselves so we are not deceived.
14k MH w/Hydra 52 HD

Just Hydra 52 HDs

With a yellow filter

Can you tell??

Thank you for posting these pics. IMO this is the only way dragon soul and indo gold are being sold for outrageous prices.

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

I am a newbie (Comparatively speaking), bought a coral with “blue tip” in its name. Gorgeous piece in the pictures. Turns out the tips are white and look blue in blue light. So the question is “Is this unethical, wrong or ok practice by the seller”. When I reached out to them they just confirmed the whole light thing.
is this ethical, wrong or ok?
should I have known to ask if the blue is due to light or if it is actually blue?Great learning experience.

Don't blame yourself for not asking. I recently made a purchase from a pretty well known smaller coral provider who had been recommended to me as being very "ethical". They had two types of coral on their site, one white, one green. I'd been recently burned on a purchase from another large scale seller (who did make it right though) so I made it a POINT to ask them specifically if the corals were that color because of the light. I was told, "they don't look that color the ARE that color."
Guess what, when they arrived they were no where NEAR that color. One was pink the other purple with a frosted white texture to the trunk, but obviously not a white coral. And when I messaged them and asked I was told I needed to have the right lighting cause my white light (20K t-5) turns corals brown so if I wanted color I had to have blues. I'm sorry, I've been in this too long for that level of BS. So I put them under blue just to see (I also have kessils) and guess what, still no green or white. I said something and was then told I had to have a specific BRAND of light set at the presets for LPS coral (and this wasn't an LPS).
So no. Even when you ask, way too many vendors will lie and then use the light excuse.
While others may not agree with with what I'm about to say, I will stand by it; if it takes UV lighting to make a coral a particular color, then its not that color. It fluoresces that color, but it isn't white, green, blue, yellow, unless those colors show under 20K lighting or something close too it.

And yes, I am fully aware that corals grown under blue light will develop morphology. But again, these are not conditions in a well lighted tank and the sellers KNOW once that coral is moved into different conditions those colors will fade, because guess what, they aren't normal and they aren't natural. And that needs to be divulged as well rather than letting people believe otherwise.
If the fluorescing color (or artificially manufactured color) is fine by the buyer, great, but *** don't lie to them. Just say it, "X coral will only show these colors when fluorescing under X lighting and house in these conditions." And if it's under X at a specific setting, include that info. Then show a picture under white 20K light just so there is no misunderstanding. Trust me, that one 150.00-350.00 sale isn't worth losing a possible life time client who will spend thousands with you over the years.
And for those itching to say "white light pictures will hurt sales" or "People need to do their own research instead of expecting to be told" then you're the a part of the problem.
Honesty is a requirement of good business.
One day, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, one of these vendors will screw over the wrong person who has the resources to take them to court for false/misleading advertisement and devastate them with court costs, bad press, and the vender could then face state and federal charges for false and misleading advertisement on top of that that chocolate dipped, rocky road disaster.
And yeah, go ahead and chuckle... But if a clothing company can wind up with millions in fines over a 1 cent button don't think for a moment any dishonest seller is untouchable.
Eventually it will happen, then EVERYONE even the honest sellers, will be stuck facing the backlash, which is completely unfair to the honest sellers.

 

[Jfarooqpak]

Don't blame yourself for not asking. I recently made a purchase from a pretty well known smaller coral provider who had been recommended to me as being very "ethical". They had two types of coral on their site, one white, one green. I'd been recently burned on a purchase from another large scale seller (who did make it right though) so I made it a POINT to ask them specifically if the corals were that color because of the light. I was told, "they don't look that color the ARE that color."
Guess what, when they arrived they were no where NEAR that color. One was pink the other purple with a frosted white texture to the trunk, but obviously not a white coral. And when I messaged them and asked I was told I needed to have the right lighting cause my white light (20K t-5) turns corals brown so if I wanted color I had to have blues. I'm sorry, I've been in this too long for that level of crap. So I put them under blue just to see (I also have kessils) and guess what, still no green or white. I said something and was then told I had to have a specific BRAND of light set at the presets for LPS coral (and this wasn't an LPS).
So no. Even when you ask, way too many vendors will lie and then use the light excuse.
While others may not agree with with what I'm about to say, I will stand by it; if it takes UV lighting to make a coral a particular color, then its not that color. It fluoresces that color, but it isn't white, green, blue, yellow, unless those colors show under 20K lighting or something close too it.

And yes, I am fully aware that corals grown under blue light will develop morphology. But again, these are not conditions in a well lighted tank and the sellers KNOW once that coral is moved into different conditions those colors will fade, because guess what, they aren't normal and they aren't natural. And that needs to be divulged as well rather than letting people believe otherwise.
If the fluorescing color (or artificially manufactured color) is fine by the buyer, great, but *** don't lie to them. Just say it, "X coral will only show these colors when fluorescing under X lighting and house in these conditions." And if it's under X at a specific setting, include that info. Then show a picture under white 20K light just so there is no misunderstanding. Trust me, that one 150.00-350.00 sale isn't worth losing a possible life time client who will spend thousands with you over the years.
And for those itching to say "white light pictures will hurt sales" or "People need to do their own research instead of expecting to be told" then you're the a part of the problem.
Honesty is a requirement of good business.
One day, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, one of these vendors will screw over the wrong person who has the resources to take them to court for false/misleading advertisement and devastate them with court costs, bad press, and the vender could then face state and federal charges for false and misleading advertisement on top of that that chocolate dipped, rocky road disaster.
And yeah, go ahead and chuckle... But if a clothing company can wind up with millions in fines over a 1 cent button don't think for a moment any dishonest seller is untouchable.
Eventually it will happen, then EVERYONE even the honest sellers, will be stuck facing the backlash, which is completely unfair to the honest sellers.

I couldnt possibly agree more with you.

 

[ReefCAKE]

I think the coral you received is nice piece either way. Maybe look at this as a learning experience. I have come to learn how different corals look under different lighting setups. A lot of setups (including mine) are now way heavy on blue spectrum which inherently makes some colors pop. I'd recommend asking what lighting is used in the pics and ask if other pics are available. In my opinion the vendor is not in the wrong here.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Here's the thing, we all run different lights on our tanks. I personally prefer a bluer spectrum. My lights are run at around 18-20K at peak...they NEVER get any "whiter" than 18K. Others will run their tanks at 10-14K. Others will run tanks on full actinics and like that color. It just depends...and the lighting you're running will determine in many ways how a coral looks in your tank. The seller should show the coral under their lighting, and IMO I prefer a seller to disclose what type of lighting a photo is taken under. I don't know that I would say something is "unethical" if it's reproducible in your tank (I.e. if you can turn your lighting to their settings and achieve the same thing). However, I do think best practice is to disclose what spectrum photos were taken under when selling corals.

 

[Jfarooqpak]

Here's the thing, we all run different lights on our tanks. I personally prefer a bluer spectrum. My lights are run at around 18-20K at peak...they NEVER get any "whiter" than 18K. Others will run their tanks at 10-14K. Others will run tanks on full actinics and like that color. It just depends...and the lighting you're running will determine in many ways how a coral looks in your tank. The seller should show the coral under their lighting, and IMO I prefer a seller to disclose what type of lighting a photo is taken under. I don't know that I would say something is "unethical" if it's reproducible in your tank (I.e. if you can turn your lighting to their settings and achieve the same thing). However, I do think best practice is to disclose what spectrum photos were taken under when selling corals.

I like your reasoning. Thank you for that but here is a question on that. If I buy from three different vendors with three different lighting systems, whose lighting system should I try to reproduce in my tank? That is another reason I believe e they should not name something “blue tip“ if it is blue tip only in blue light.

 

[Biokabe]

Chalk it up as a learning experience. In every specialized niche, different terms mean different things, even if in English it's the exact same word.

For example, a related but different field: Roses. These are all "blue" roses:

Not very blue, are they? Yet all of them are considered 'blue' roses (Wild Blue Yonder, Blue Girl, Neptune).

The same thing happens with corals. We have our conventions and our trade names, and a lot of what we see is dependent on tradition, lighting, training and experience. For example, on your torch - the tips of your coral look light blue to me (I'd call it ice blue or steel blue), even under the white lights. In a bluer environment (which is quite typical in a reef tank), that blue would deepen.

That said, I can't claim that I have no problems with the vendor's image either. It looks very saturated with blue light - I wouldn't be surprised if that picture was taken under 100% blue lighting.

 

[jasonrusso]

I agree with this to a point. False advertising is still false advertising. I feel that it is a vendor's responsibility to be as up front with people as possible. Unfortunately everyone has a different view of what is unethical, wrong, etc.

Isn't there an online vendor that posts pictures of the same coral under 3 different lighting profiles?

 

[The Aquatic Arsenal]

Isn't there an online vendor that posts pictures of the same coral under 3 different lighting profiles?

I am sure there are several honestly. We have people request pics of coral under different lighting g from time to time, which we have no issues with.

 

[Leslie Tabor]

I agree, it seems to be an acceptable among hobbyist. Some of the pics I see are just unbelievable.

Thank you! I was reading this thread thinking why is this just acceptable to everyone? For those of you mentioning that is what you get for not going to the store...remember, not all of us have multiple stores right down the street. I have 4 hours of driving if I want to go to my nearest LFS. Now this is not the vendors fault but seriously, some of this stuff is getting a tad ridiculous.

 

[Leslie Tabor]

I definitely agree that a lot of coral vendors are shady as heck. It is super shady when they use camera filters and photoshop.

In this case, though, I think the coral was just pictured under blue light. I just dont see a coral being photographed under blues as shady.

I would agree IF the coral wasn't being marketed as a blue tip. When I got my red xenia...it is red. In the bag, in daylight, in my tank...just varies in shade. If they said it was a white tip torch that glows blue under blue light, then ok. It is a matter of opinion of course.

 

[Dragon52]

It was wrong on the vendors part. If it's sold as a Blue tip it should be a blue tip. If I buy a red truck & have it delivered & they drive up in a blue truck I'm going to be mad & not accept it. it's not what I ordered. IMO

 

[jasonrusso]

I think that all the vendors should post what light spectrum the corals are photographed under. I think most vendors already do that.

Once you know that, you can tell if something is white with a blue tint, or deep blue (blue with more blue tint). If that is disclosed then it is up to you to make the determination. There are just some colors that don't occur naturally in corals. If you see that, then you know that it is photoshopped.

 

[vetteguy53081]