Warning: Use Vibrant at your own risk

[Sean Clark]

 

[happyhourhero]

OK - while you keep repeating the word 'pesticide' as if its some kind of poison, toxic horrible chemical. You can also realize that if you have a swimming pool, you're swimming in it on a daily basis in all likelihood. Pesticide is used by the EPA in a very simple way - the word itself does not imply that its dangerous for anything except the 'pest' its designed to eradicate. For example - antibiotics that are prescribed throughout the world are also 'pesticides' in some situations/concentrations.

I'm not defending false labeling. I do not promote or condone companies (any company) not fully labeling/answering whats in their products if its required by law.

Are you affiliated with UWC?

 

[LRT]

I don't think that anybody should be expecting a response or anything from UWC. In each instance, they come back with something else and just kick the can of mislabeled algaecide down the road. First, just complete denial and ridicule of anybody who said otherwise, then when pressure got put on them by Dr. RHF, BRS, etc. then they were running test and now their lawyers have to read the threads to figure out how to respond (like it was not going to be based in fact or truth?).

Next is probably going to be a state supreme court needing to rule, then maybe a congressional subcommittee, joint chiefs and maybe NATO here on Earth. Will need to go to The United Federation of Planets after that and maybe a Jedi Council meeting after that.

Nah some folks will still misdirect, mislead and just plain out argue for arguments sake but at the end of the day the earth is still round when I see pictures of it from space and the replicating NMR shows the same picture.

 

[Moe K]

After reading every page between the 2 posts I am possibly seeing a trend.

- Those that have lps/softy tanks have a much higher rate of success
- SPS dominant takes are at much higher risk
- Tanks with clams an even higher risk
- Doses at half the recommendation = lower risk
- Doses above the recommendation = super high risk
- Chances of dinos after treatment = very possible

Whether this stuff works or not is not in question as algaecide will kill algae. It is about deliberately being mislead into a product that is potentially lethal to your pets disguised as a safe natural treatment. Is it through UWC or their manufacturers lying through their teeth to UWC? Who knows? Ultimately it is UWC distributing vibrant no matter what is in it and ultimately their responsibility to accurately inform the public.

After seeing some sort of consensus I do believe they have the possibility of continuing to sell as confusing it is to me many don't care about the situation and only care about price ;Jawdrop. Change the label to more accurately represent the product and keep going. Triple down you stand behind the product's ingredient claims and it seems like the hole just keeps getting bigger.

Larger online retailers have already pulled inventory but I have seen local LFS still carrying. We could be a drop in the bucket here following this drama and many still unaware of the testing and findings but when they do, how ethical is it to continue to sell the product to your customers?

P.S - With the introduction of fluconazole into the hobby (which I consider a game changer for algae control) I keep scratching my head why so many pass it up considering the amount of successful treatments it has done. It is even now being found to kill bubble algae effectively at higher doses. Some are putting in 4x doses in acro dominant tanks to eliminate bubble algae successfully with no coral loss. I have done 3x the dose myself with no coral loss. In fact they seemed a little more PE during treatment. I also had a maxima clam during this process. Maybe now we can start working on giving better advice and keeping more newbies in the hobby. I lost count of how many people told me to use Vibrant when I had bubble algae. Disclamer : I am not affiliated with any fluconazole manufacturers and attempt these treatments at your own risk ;Woot.

 

[LRT]

OK - while you keep repeating the word 'pesticide' as if its some kind of poison, toxic horrible chemical. You can also realize that if you have a swimming pool, you're swimming in it on a daily basis in all likelihood. Pesticide is used by the EPA in a very simple way - the word itself does not imply that its dangerous for anything except the 'pest' its designed to eradicate. For example - antibiotics that are prescribed throughout the world are also 'pesticides' in some situations/concentrations.

I'm not defending false labeling. I do not promote or condone companies (any company) not fully labeling/answering whats in their products if its required by law.

Sorry I should have been clear. I was talking about the algecide that appears to be the exact same one thats in algefix which happens to also act as a mulloscicide. If thats not toxic I'm not sure what is lol..
We are not talking about a pool. We are talking about my living reef sitting in my fish room with rock chock full of all kinds of clams, oysters and bivalves etc.
Btw- Those pool conditioners, pesticides and even algefix or where ever we seem to be headed now... They all have warning labels on them letting me know not to put it in my tank and keep away from my puppy and small kids that come around that may be able to get into it and ahold of even the smallest of doses.

 

[MnFish1]

Honestly, I am not trying to imply or suggest anything new here. I just think we as a group of everyone posting here, should be working together to find the truth. What happens in the end shouldn't be about who is "right" or who is "wrong". This should be about coming together to find what is true. I have no axe to grind here, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that I am a scientist. I just want to know the truth.

With no offense - I believe you've already made a decision

 

[Sean Clark]

With no offense - I believe you've already made a decision

You are not wrong. Hopefully I am though.

 

[MnFish1]

Are you affiliated with UWC?

Have you read the multiple responses to this question. If not - you can go back and read them lol. I HAVE EDIT - NOT BEEN supportive of vibrant as a reef tank product - DUE TO ISSUES IN MY TANK. Maybe go back to your happy hour, drown yourself in whatever you want to - read the thread(s) - and then decide if that a question you feel like asking. BTW - the happy hour was a reference to your name - not an insult

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry I should have been clear. I was talking about the algecide that appears to be the exact same one thats in algefix which happens to also act as a mulloscicide. If thats not toxic I'm not sure what is lol..
We are not talking about a pool. We are talking about my living reef sitting in my fish room with rock chock full of all kinds of clams, oysters and bivalves etc.
Btw- Those pool conditioners, pesticides and even algefix or where ever we seem to be headed now... They all have warning labels on them letting me know not to put it in my tank and keep away from my puppy and small kids that come around that may be able to get into it and ahold of even the smallest of doses.

Maybe you haven't read the question that I asked that started this mini tempest in a teapot. I asked RANDY - does NMR help tell the concentration - or only the content. I didnt ask for any of these side debates that you all want to have lol. Its an easy question. There should be an easy answer,

 

[otzhorse]

Have you read the multiple responses to this question. If not - you can go back and read them lol. Have I been supportive of vibrant as a reef tank product - not in mine. Maybe go back to your happy hour, drown yourself in whatever you want to - read the thread(s) - and then decide if that a question you feel like asking. BTW - the happy hour was a reference to your name - not an insult

I just wanted to say while I don't agree with several of the posts you have made in this thread or the other, I do not believe you are in any way affiliated with UWC. You have been here far too long to just be here. I do believe you to be a contrarian, which I do not view as a bad thing. You also don't need to keep defending yourself. If you know you are not associated with UWC I would quit replying to people who imply that you are. Just my opinion. I have read every single post in both threads because I am very curious and interested in the science. I bought a bottle of Vibrant right before this came about and I have not and will not use it unless I need an algaecide. I have read @Randy Holmes-Farley other papers and have seen his credentials. I also assume, that if he is supporting @jda and @taricha in their study of the product that it is a valid study. The study has been replicated based on @taricha study which indicates that he utilized proper methods and a clear process to gather the data.

This post is in no way challenging your opinions or your beliefs it is just me explaining my thoughts as I read all of the posts.

 

[MnFish1]

I just wanted to say while I don't agree with several of the posts you have made in this thread or the other, I do not believe you are in any way affiliated with UWC. You have been here far too long to just be here. I do believe you to be a contrarian, which I do not view as a bad thing. You also don't need to keep defending yourself. If you know you are not associated with UWC I would quit replying to people who imply that you are. Just my opinion. I have read every single post in both threads because I am very curious and interested in the science. I bought a bottle of Vibrant right before this came about and I have not and will not use it unless I need an algaecide. I have read @Randy Holmes-Farley other papers and have seen his credentials. I also assume, that if he is supporting @jda and @taricha in their study of the product that it is a valid study. The study has been replicated based on @taricha

Point taken

 

[LRT]

Maybe you haven't read the question that I asked that started this mini tempest in a teapot. I asked RANDY - does NMR help tell the concentration - or only the content. I didnt ask for any of these side debates that you all want to have lol. Its an easy question. There should be an easy answer,

I've read every post in this thread as well as most of the science threads posted by @Dan_P and @taricha and many others. And although I do agree with previous poster that your not in anyway affiliated with Vibrant. One can't help but read all these science threads and feel you may actually be affiliated with a group that has an axe to grind with certain members. Why im not sure and don't care but the pattern of discreditation and misleaditation through all the threads is quite apparent for anyone to see. It just so happens in this thread the testing, replicate NMR and caliber of folks backing the science leads to 0 credibility for the patterned behavior of denial we seen in the other threads. In other words nobody's buying it anymore.
BTW- im not calling you out in particular just stating my opinion of specific observations ive made.

 

[MnFish1]

I've read every post in this thread as well as most of the science threads posted by @Dan_P and @taricha and many others. And although I do agree with previous poster that your not in anyway affiliated with Vibrant. One can't help but read all these science threads and feel you may actually be affiliated with a group that has an axe to grind with certain members. Why im not sure and don't care but the pattern of discreditation and misleaditation through all the threads is quite apparent for anyone to see. It just so happens in this thread the testing, replicate NMR and caliber of folks backing the science leads to 0 credibility for the patterned behavior of denial we seen in the other threads. In other words nobody's buying it anymore.
BTW- im not calling you out in particular just stating my opinion of specific observations ive made.

Thanks for your observations. Affiliated with a group?? ok. All good

 

[happyhourhero]

Have you read the multiple responses to this question. If not - you can go back and read them lol. I HAVE EDIT - NOT BEEN supportive of vibrant as a reef tank product - DUE TO ISSUES IN MY TANK. Maybe go back to your happy hour, drown yourself in whatever you want to - read the thread(s) - and then decide if that a question you feel like asking. BTW - the happy hour was a reference to your name - not an insult

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[LRT]

Thanks for your observations. Affiliated with a group?? ok. All good

Not sure and don't care. No personal attacks to you as I see the same line of discreditation from other folks from time to time. Perhaps you or they may have jumped on the wrong, same bus at the wrong time. Or maybe you are the actual bus at the end of the day. Point was that one doesn't need an undergraduate degree in brain breaking to read these science threads to see the very obvious pattern discreditation is all im saying.

 

[mindme]

You can see the difference between 'going beyond the recommended dosage will not improve results,' versus 'It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labelling'?

How do you know if it's a violation of federal law? Do you have information other people don't have? Do you know what the concentration is?

I'm just interested in finding out the truth, and I don't find making claims without evidence to really be helpful towards that.

 

[mindme]

EPA reporting thresholds aside... Could we at least agree that based on what has been shown here Vibrant is not a bacteria blend with a dash of sugar and vinegar as stated on the bottle?

It still could be. It says 3.5% is "other ingredients". This could be what the 3.5% is.

 

[a.t.t.r]

It still could be. It says 3.5% is "other ingredients". This could be what the 3.5% is.

The 3.5 is listed as rodi in their website. But either way the test shows NOTHING besides the same ingredients as algaefix if there was anything else in it those test would have shown spikes elsewhere.

 

[mindme]

The 3.5 is listed as rodi in their website. But either way the test shows NOTHING besides the same ingredients as algaefix if there was anything else in it those test would have shown spikes elsewhere.

Not sure about the tests, but it does show 3.5% as RODI on the website. Wonder why the bottle is different.

 

[Karen00]

After reading every page between the 2 posts I am possibly seeing a trend.

- Those that have lps/softy tanks have a much higher rate of success
- SPS dominant takes are at much higher risk
- Tanks with clams an even higher risk
- Doses at half the recommendation = lower risk
- Doses above the recommendation = super high risk
- Chances of dinos after treatment = very possible

Whether this stuff works or not is not in question as algaecide will kill algae. It is about deliberately being mislead into a product that is potentially lethal to your pets disguised as a safe natural treatment. Is it through UWC or their manufacturers lying through their teeth to UWC? Who knows? Ultimately it is UWC distributing vibrant no matter what is in it and ultimately their responsibility to accurately inform the public.

After seeing some sort of consensus I do believe they have the possibility of continuing to sell as confusing it is to me many don't care about the situation and only care about price ;Jawdrop. Change the label to more accurately represent the product and keep going. Triple down you stand behind the product's ingredient claims and it seems like the hole just keeps getting bigger.

Larger online retailers have already pulled inventory but I have seen local LFS still carrying. We could be a drop in the bucket here following this drama and many still unaware of the testing and findings but when they do, how ethical is it to continue to sell the product to your customers?

P.S - With the introduction of fluconazole into the hobby (which I consider a game changer for algae control) I keep scratching my head why so many pass it up considering the amount of successful treatments it has done. It is even now being found to kill bubble algae effectively at higher doses. Some are putting in 4x doses in acro dominant tanks to eliminate bubble algae successfully with no coral loss. I have done 3x the dose myself with no coral loss. In fact they seemed a little more PE during treatment. I also had a maxima clam during this process. Maybe now we can start working on giving better advice and keeping more newbies in the hobby. I lost count of how many people told me to use Vibrant when I had bubble algae. Disclamer : I am not affiliated with any fluconazole manufacturers and attempt these treatments at your own risk ;Woot.

It's possible not everyone can get fluconazole or they have to jump through hoops with a vet to prescribe it depending on the regulations of the country in question. I think pretty much all meds that we used to be able to buy off the shelf for fish here in Canada now needs a vet to prescribe. Total pain in the ****. I'm sure UWC was able to get around most inspections/rwgulations with their claim that Vibrant is just bacteria so it's probably available in every country in the world and doesn't need a vet to be involved to get your hands on it.