Warning: Use Vibrant at your own risk

[LiveFreeAndReef]

Not trying to defend Vibrant here, but they do have instructions for dosing correctly. If you don't follow instructions, it's kind of your fault for what happens. And that has to with anything.

I've used it and it works. I quit using it because I realized algae is good to have. The only issue is where the algae is growing for me.

I don't think anyone is debating their dosing instructions. The issue seems to be more about the fact that they misrepresented what their product actually is

 

[Karen00]

The concern with clams, aside from losing them, is that the actual ingredient found by NMR (as found in Busan 77) is specifically listed as an EPA approved molluscicide. That's not in seawater, but it's a huge warning flag if the indentity were known:

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/001448-00042-20140919.pdf

MOLLUSK CONTROL: To control mollusks such as Corbicula species in recirculating or once-through cooling water and industrial systems, add This product at dosage rates of 2 to 20 ppm. Make continuous or intermittent additions at the intake water. Continuous addition is required for noticeably fouled systems. Intermittent feeding is used to maintain control. This product is used to control algae and mollusks such as Corbicula and Dreissena species in potable water treatment systems. Mitigation: Add This product to the raw water at dosage rates of 2 to 5 ppm (2 to 5 ml_ of This product /1000 L of water). For badly fouled systems, treat continuously for up to 21 days, followed by regular control treatments. Control: To avoid fouling of potable water systems by mollusks, treat the raw water at 2 ppm for 60 minutes, repeating this treatment daily or a continuous feed of 0.5 mg/L

Exactly! Thanks for posting this information Randy. This is what upsets me so much by what appears to be a dereliction of labelling by UWC. People using it had no idea there was stuff in there that could outright kill their inhabitants. People using APIs version know what precautions to take before dosing because the product clearly states what's in it. All the members saying how great Vibrant worked for them are missing the point of this thread. I feel awful for everyone that lost inhabitants to this product because they didn't know they were possibly dosing a full on algaecide!

 

[Malcontent]

Toxicity is probably affected by pH, bacterial population, organics, etc. It's the same with glutaraldehyde.

It needs to be significantly more toxic to algae than the organisms we don't want harmed (fish, corals, etc.) but it probably isn't.

 

[Karen00]

Yes, I do recall now about other creatures being harmed.

And yet Vibrant works for some people but not others. It harms and kills in some aquaria but not others. I need to put aside lab time to kill some algae with Vibrant.

I'm sure it depends on what people had in their tanks and how much they dosed. Maybe they had no clams and/or sensitive corals but the point is not whether it works or not it's the fact that it appears to be improperly labelled. If I were allergic to nuts and ate a product that had nuts in it but didn't list it and I suffered a life threatening reaction you can bet I would be contacting my lawyer.

 

[Karen00]

This is going to sound like I'm scolding.

We need to stop with the ambiguous statements. The company did lie about the ingredients. Vibrant is an algaecide, identical to the one in Algaefix. The side by side NMR results, confirmed by Randy Holmes-Farley, Craig Bingman, Courtney Aldrich, and others who are qualified to read NMR, show the same ingredient. UWC will try to cast doubt and distract, but we should not let that happen.

I am not trying to be ambiguous. Having said that everyone is waiting for UWC to comment. I believe they lied but I'm also trying to be respectful. If you read my comments throughout this thread you will see I am in no way supporting them. This thread is no different than everyone waiting to officially here from Tropic Marin regarding their salt from Turkey.

 

[mindme]

Dosing instructions for a pesticide are regulated by the EPA - hence the warning label on API Algaefix. Ever see a warning label on a bacterial supplement?

Are you suggesting Vibrant has a higher dose than what would be regulated by the FDA?

There is no excuse if Vibrant is mislabeled as something is not. At the same time, I find very little excuse for people misrepresenting what it actually does etc.

 

[jcolliii]

What I am saying is that when something carries the EPA warning label about misuse being a violation of federal law, people will probably take dosing of that product (like API Algaefix) a lot more seriously than a natural product that is nothing but bacteria (like Biospira). Overdosing one of those things might be substantially more impactiful that the other, hence the warning label on the product that was honest about its contents.

I have used bacterial products above their dosing instructions when seeding new sand, for example. The only side effect was no ugly phase.

 

[mindme]

What I am saying is that when something carries the EPA warning label about misuse being a violation of federal law, people will probably take dosing of that product (like API Algaefix) a lot more seriously than a natural product that is nothing but bacteria (like Biospira). Overdosing one of those things might be substantially more impactiful that the other, hence the warning label on the product that was honest about its contents.

I have used bacterial products above their dosing instructions when seeding new sand, for example. The only side effect was no ugly phase.

If I don't follow instructions I don't blame the company, I blame myself.

Those bacterial products say overdosing doesn't improve results. I doubt it was the reason for no ugly stage because they will reproduce on their own. And if they could claim it would skip the ugly stage by overdosing, they would.

I used Microbacter Start XLM with dry sand(as per the instructions) and didn't have an ugly stage in my 180 outside very light diatoms(which I still get from time to time if I'm not careful with my RODI filter, as it seems to allow silicates quickly based on ICP tests).

There is no excuse for what Vibrant has done, and that is serious enough in itself. I just don't buy that it's their fault if people dose beyond the instructions.

 

[MnFish1]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I have gone on the record stating that the data presented (which has not been disputed as far as I have read) - that vibrant contains an ingredient similar if not identical to Algaefix. What I still have not heard - is whether the NMR shows the concentration of the 'chemical' - nor whether there is an EPA limit above which it needs to be reported? This is not a controversial post, its not designed to denigrate results. I just would like the answer from Randy

 

[MnFish1]

If I don't follow instructions I don't blame the company, I blame myself.

Those bacterial products say overdosing doesn't improve results. I doubt it was the reason for no ugly stage because they will reproduce on their own. And if they could claim it would skip the ugly stage by overdosing, they would.

I used Microbacter Start XLM with dry sand(as per the instructions) and didn't have an ugly stage in my 180 outside very light diatoms(which I still get from time to time if I'm not careful with my RODI filter, as it seems to allow silicates quickly based on ICP tests).

There is no excuse for what Vibrant has done, and that is serious enough in itself. I just don't buy that it's their fault if people dose beyond the instructions.

This is true. In my case - I did dose it beyond the instructions. If its mislabeled - thats a story for the lawyers - not me

 

[jeffww]

Hello Everyone,

As everyone knows Vibrant has been wildly popular. We stand by Vibrant 100% and we are not taking these accusations lightly.

At this time, we have samples of Vibrant out to Labs for independent certified testing dating back to batches from 2016 to current to compare them to see if there have been any changes in the production of Vibrant.

We are hoping to have these results back by the end of this week and we will post everything that we have.

I know this post will not please everyone, but we want to have as much information as possible for the community before we make any official statements.

Thank you,
Jeff
UWC

Update?

 

[muzikalmatt]

You stand by your product 100%, yet you don't know what's in it?

 

[jcolliii]

If I don't follow instructions I don't blame the company, I blame myself.

Those bacterial products say overdosing doesn't improve results. I doubt it was the reason for no ugly stage because they will reproduce on their own. And if they could claim it would skip the ugly stage by overdosing, they would.

I used Microbacter Start XLM with dry sand(as per the instructions) and didn't have an ugly stage in my 180 outside very light diatoms(which I still get from time to time if I'm not careful with my RODI filter, as it seems to allow silicates quickly based on ICP tests).

There is no excuse for what Vibrant has done, and that is serious enough in itself. I just don't buy that it's their fault if people dose beyond the instructions.

You can see the difference between 'going beyond the recommended dosage will not improve results,' versus 'It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labelling'?

An analogy to illustrate: Taking 3x the dosage of an anti-anxiety medication versus taking 3x the recommended dosage of fish oil. One may kill you, the other one may make you spend more time in the bathroom.

I do agree with some of what you are saying - I think others who used this at multiples of the dosing rate bear some responsibility in the loss of their corals - they did not follow instructions. BUT... overdosing bacteria (fish oil) probably wouldn't result in coral loss (probably), whereas overdosing an unknown, unlabeled, algaecide (anxiety med) very definitely can. If you are laboring under the assumption that the manufacturer is not lying to you, you can see how, potentially, this could cause an issue?

 

[Sean Clark]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I have gone on the record stating that the data presented (which has not been disputed as far as I have read) - that vibrant contains an ingredient similar if not identical to Algaefix. What I still have not heard - is whether the NMR shows the concentration of the 'chemical' - nor whether there is an EPA limit above which it needs to be reported? This is not a controversial post, its not designed to denigrate results. I just would like the answer from Randy

EPA reporting thresholds aside... Could we at least agree that based on what has been shown here Vibrant is not a bacteria blend with a dash of sugar and vinegar as stated on the bottle?

 

[Borat]

As a user of Vibrant - I can tell you folkes that Vibrant is definitely not bacterial, it has long-lasting effects and is definitely not aimed at nutrients.

As I run skimmerless - I had to turn off my ATS and refugium for the duration of treatment, my phosphates went to the unheard of levels of 0.5ppm and nitrates to 40ppm (verus "normal" levels of 0.03 and 0 nitrates). Despite plentiful nitrients all bubble algae was killed (not all but 99% to be honest). 6 month on after the treatment was stopped - I can still see it working on my tank: every now on I find bubble algae (like one or two bubbles somewhere in the sump) - but they are really knacked, very solf, almost transuscent and barely surviving. So Vibrant does not switch off after you stopped dosing - it stays in your tank for a long time...

 

[LRT]

Incredible to see the different views here. I feel like the whole entire dosing thing is irrelevant based on the merits of the ingredient list on the label being false to begin with. If its a pesticide it should rock the same warnings as the rest rocking pesticides. If its same active ingredient as in algefix that's also known to act as a mulloscicide it should be clearly stated no matter what dosing instructions are listed.
Besides I haven't been able to purchase a bottle of anything that I dose and not have to tweak certain things here and there to make it work for my system.
Absoloutely ridiculous argument really.

 

[Borat]

EPA reporting thresholds aside... Could we at least agree that based on what has been shown here Vibrant is not a bacteria blend with a dash of sugar and vinegar as stated on the bottle?

what a coincidence - I was writing exactly about that!

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I can give you a list....

Ouch! When did this happen? I looked for a thread by you talking about your crash or use of Vibrant that killed all of your coral, but couldn't find it.

 

[shwareefer]

As a user of Vibrant - I can tell you folkes that Vibrant is definitely not bacterial, it has long-lasting effects and is definitely not aimed at nutrients.

I bet if examined, anyone who's nutrients declined were also dosing MB7 or Dr. Tims thinking they were creating a lovely all-bacterial cocktail.

 

[MnFish1]

EPA reporting thresholds aside... Could we at least agree that based on what has been shown here Vibrant is not a bacteria blend with a dash of sugar and vinegar as stated on the bottle?

LOL. I have written my opinion multiple times. It contains an ingredient similar to algaefix according to the tests reported. What more do you want - should I tattoo it on my forehead? As to other ingredients - waiting for the rest of the independent testing just like everyone else. I should have posted this in the other thread discussing the chemistry. The question I asked was simple - Do NMR tests show 'concentration' as compared to content? Thats it.