Warning: Use Vibrant at your own risk

[ScottB]

First and foremost, thank you for such an informative reply. Fortunately, I have discontinued the use of Vibrant as the bubble algae has been eradicated. I conducted a water change as a preventative measure and tested both nitrates and phosphates. With both sitting where I intentionally keep them (Phos .06/ Nitrate 7ppm) in an LPS and Softies tank, I believe I dodged some of the possible issues that others have experienced.

Leaving me questioning. Do I dispose of this bottle, sending it of to toilet Hell next time I use the urinal? Or preserve and administer it in the same manner as previously executed? Short and swift.

As an inexperienced Reefer, I'd rather not make that call. Not just yet. Your input is highly appreciated ScottB. This thread is very intriguing to say the least.

There is a lot of justified hate on UWC for the apparent mislabeling, and I get that. I still have a little Vibrant and will likely keep it around. I would not dose it to my tanks again for algae as there are other ways to manage algae when the tank is large. My tanks are large enough I can keep plenty of zebrasoma tangs, foxface and other herbivores. Plus, my heavy import/export systems are not so prone anyway. But if I had chrysophytes again, well, it is the only thing that worked, and I tried a lot of things. (I did a little aquascape remodel with dead rock. Never again.)

The stuff (Busan 77) I feel has a use case in the hobby that may or may not apply to you. If you have the time, patience, and curiosity to figure out how to solve for algae and "green glass" then it isn't needed. Absent that, it may be helpful to keep some folks in the hobby.

Thanks for the thoughtful GIF.

 

[ScottB]

Exactly what happened to me. I had about 30 yuma that became 5 because I was being generous with the product. It took over a year for those 5 to recover and start making babies again. That was before any of this came to light and was actually why I joined this forum in the first place. I thought I had starved them, not poisoned them.

Which you would have MUCH less likely done given proper labeling and warnings.

 

[shwareefer]

Which you would have MUCH less likely done given proper labeling and warnings.

Exactly.

 

[Cell]

There is a lot of justified hate on UWC for the apparent mislabeling, and I get that. I still have a little Vibrant and will likely keep it around. I would not dose it to my tanks again for algae as there are other ways to manage algae when the tank is large. My tanks are large enough I can keep plenty of zebrasoma tangs, foxface and other herbivores. Plus, my heavy import/export systems are not so prone anyway. But if I had chrysophytes again, well, it is the only thing that worked, and I tried a lot of things. (I did a little aquascape remodel with dead rock. Never again.)

The stuff (Busan 77) I feel has a use case in the hobby that may or may not apply to you. If you have the time, patience, and curiosity to figure out how to solve for algae and "green glass" then it isn't needed. Absent that, it may be helpful to keep some folks in the hobby.

Thanks for the thoughtful GIF.

Not just mislabeling though, which is bad enough. They were also greatly overcharging for the product given what it actually is.

 

[a.t.t.r]

There is a lot of justified hate on UWC for the apparent mislabeling, and I get that. I still have a little Vibrant and will likely keep it around. I would not dose it to my tanks again for algae as there are other ways to manage algae when the tank is large. My tanks are large enough I can keep plenty of zebrasoma tangs, foxface and other herbivores. Plus, my heavy import/export systems are not so prone anyway. But if I had chrysophytes again, well, it is the only thing that worked, and I tried a lot of things. (I did a little aquascape remodel with dead rock. Never again.)

The stuff (Busan 77) I feel has a use case in the hobby that may or may not apply to you. If you have the time, patience, and curiosity to figure out how to solve for algae and "green glass" then it isn't needed. Absent that, it may be helpful to keep some folks in the hobby.

Thanks for the thoughtful GIF.

Yes and that product is 1/3 the price and correctly labeled. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Arego]

There may be no "magic" in a bottle, but products that are accurately labelled with detailed instructions are much easier to use and stand behind.

I'll use seachem phosguard for example. The bottle and the website clearly say how much phosphate it can bind and remove from the water. Therefore I can test the water, calculate how much phosphate I need to remove, and then use the appropriate amount of product. I'll use less product if I want to bring down the phosphate slower, and more product if I need to bring it down quickly.

I think the major issue with Vibrant is that it is sold as one thing, but looks like from testing that it is a completely different product.

The bacteria category and the amino acid supplements seem to be the wild west right now, very similar to the supplement industry for humans. Everything is hidden behind "proprietary blends" and "patent pending formula". If a company were to come out and say we use a blend of X,Y,Z bacteria in this ratio for our product the would literally be swimming in money in a few months. People could then go research the bacteria and realize the company isn't making things up or embellishing what the product can do.

Then we would just make it ourselves sourcing each ingredient

 

[Karen00]

Interesting.

I wonder whether varying concentration of dissolved organic carbon plays a role in the variability of effectiveness seen by aquarists? Also, too bad we don’t have a running list of which corals that are annoyed by the stuff.

If I remember comments made early on the losses went beyond corals. I think I read some comments on here about members losing clams and similar inhabitants. If I remember correctly they were experienced reefers that had the clams for a while ruling out some other reason for losing the mollusks like being a newb. As mentioned I'm pretty sure they were in the first few pages of this thread. This is what has made members so mad... If the bottle had been labeled correctly (assuming it turns out to be an algaecide) they could've taken the proper steps to ensure the safety of their inhabitants before dosing. Things like moving clams, etc. to another tank until treatment was finished.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If I remember comments made early on the losses went beyond corals. I think I read some comments on here about members losing clams and similar inhabitants. If I remember correctly they were experienced reefers that had the clams for a while ruling out some other reason for losing the mollusks like being a newb. As mentioned I'm pretty sure they were in the first few pages of this thread. This is what has made members so mad... If the bottle had been labeled correctly (assuming it turns out to be an algaecide) they could've taken the proper steps to ensure the safety of their inhabitants before dosing. Things like moving clams, etc. to another tank until treatment was finished.

The concern with clams, aside from losing them, is that the actual ingredient found by NMR (as found in Busan 77) is specifically listed as an EPA approved molluscicide. That's not in seawater, but it's a huge warning flag if the indentity were known:

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/001448-00042-20140919.pdf

MOLLUSK CONTROL: To control mollusks such as Corbicula species in recirculating or once-through cooling water and industrial systems, add This product at dosage rates of 2 to 20 ppm. Make continuous or intermittent additions at the intake water. Continuous addition is required for noticeably fouled systems. Intermittent feeding is used to maintain control. This product is used to control algae and mollusks such as Corbicula and Dreissena species in potable water treatment systems. Mitigation: Add This product to the raw water at dosage rates of 2 to 5 ppm (2 to 5 ml_ of This product /1000 L of water). For badly fouled systems, treat continuously for up to 21 days, followed by regular control treatments. Control: To avoid fouling of potable water systems by mollusks, treat the raw water at 2 ppm for 60 minutes, repeating this treatment daily or a continuous feed of 0.5 mg/L

 

[nereefpat]

Not happy the company lied about the ingredients, if that turns out to be the case. Glad I didn't have any worse issues with it.

If the bottle had been labeled correctly (assuming it turns out to be an algaecide)

This is going to sound like I'm scolding.

We need to stop with the ambiguous statements. The company did lie about the ingredients. Vibrant is an algaecide, identical to the one in Algaefix. The side by side NMR results, confirmed by Randy Holmes-Farley, Craig Bingman, Courtney Aldrich, and others who are qualified to read NMR, show the same ingredient. UWC will try to cast doubt and distract, but we should not let that happen.

 

[MnFish1]

Exactly what happened to me. I had about 30 yuma that became 5 because I was being generous with the product. It took over a year for those 5 to recover and start making babies again. That was before any of this came to light and was actually why I joined this forum in the first place. I thought I had starved them, not poisoned them.

I did the same thing - 'if a little is good, more is better'. I also had the thought 'its only bacteria'. In my tank, though It was interesting. Most of the issue wasn't 'death' - it was irritated corals. GSP that didn't open for a week. Loss of 1/2 of several ACRO. which I was then able to frag off, etc. As I said before - it worked well in my freshwater tank - and though I change 90 % of the water in that 200gallon tank every 2 weeks - there is no algae returning. It did not affect my plants in the tank. The other interesting thing (in the freshwater tank). is that there is no detritus.

 

[shwareefer]

I did the same thing - 'if a little is good, more is better'. I also had the thought 'its only bacteria'. In my tank, though It was interesting. Most of the issue wasn't 'death' - it was irritated corals. GSP that didn't open for a week. Loss of 1/2 of several ACRO. which I was then able to frag off, etc. As I said before - it worked well in my freshwater tank - and though I change 90 % of the water in that 200gallon tank every 2 weeks - there is no algae returning. It did not affect my plants in the tank. The other interesting thing (in the freshwater tank). is that there is no detritus.

I also did the algaefix thing in a 90gal reef I had years ago (there was a long RC thread running at the time about algaefix) and had the result you did in your freshwater with vibrant - traditional algae (film algae, hair algae) no longer grew for years, but in my case hardy invasive macros took over. It just threw the balance off to favour worse things unfortunately but maybe in your case the plants are the benefactors.

 

[LRT]

The concern with clams, aside from losing them, is that the actual ingredient found by NMR (as found in Busan 77) is specifically listed as an EPA approved molluscicide. That's not in seawater, but it's a huge warning flag if the indentity were known:

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/001448-00042-20140919.pdf

MOLLUSK CONTROL: To control mollusks such as Corbicula species in recirculating or once-through cooling water and industrial systems, add This product at dosage rates of 2 to 20 ppm. Make continuous or intermittent additions at the intake water. Continuous addition is required for noticeably fouled systems. Intermittent feeding is used to maintain control. This product is used to control algae and mollusks such as Corbicula and Dreissena species in potable water treatment systems. Mitigation: Add This product to the raw water at dosage rates of 2 to 5 ppm (2 to 5 ml_ of This product /1000 L of water). For badly fouled systems, treat continuously for up to 21 days, followed by regular control treatments. Control: To avoid fouling of potable water systems by mollusks, treat the raw water at 2 ppm for 60 minutes, repeating this treatment daily or a continuous feed of 0.5 mg/L

This is infuriated me when it came up. Thank you for posting this data.

 

[MnFish1]

This is infuriated me when it came up. Thank you for posting this data.

Lots of things seem to infuriate you. My clams had no effect from vibrant. There is no data that it does

 

[Dan_P]

I can give you a list....

That photo hurts to look at. I cringe every time that I see it.

“This is your aquarium. This is your aquarium on Vibrant”

 

[Malcontent]

 

[rtparty]

Lots of things seem to infuriate you. My clams had no effect from vibrant. There is no data that it does

The EPA doesn't have the data to list Busan 77 as a molluscicide?

 

[Dan_P]

If I remember comments made early on the losses went beyond corals. I think I read some comments on here about members losing clams and similar inhabitants. If I remember correctly they were experienced reefers that had the clams for a while ruling out some other reason for losing the mollusks like being a newb. As mentioned I'm pretty sure they were in the first few pages of this thread. This is what has made members so mad... If the bottle had been labeled correctly (assuming it turns out to be an algaecide) they could've taken the proper steps to ensure the safety of their inhabitants before dosing. Things like moving clams, etc. to another tank until treatment was finished.

Yes, I do recall now about other creatures being harmed.

And yet Vibrant works for some people but not others. It harms and kills in some aquaria but not others. I need to put aside lab time to kill some algae with Vibrant.

 

[MnFish1]

The EPA doesn't have the data to list Busan 77 as a molluscicide?

My guess is that it depends on the concentration. My guess - is that the 'reef version' has a lower concentration of whatever it is. IDK

 

[mindme]

Yes, a pesticide, labelled as such, and dosed correctly for that pesticide, and handled appropriately for that pesticide... right on. Hard to do that when you don't know you're handling one though.

Not trying to defend Vibrant here, but they do have instructions for dosing correctly. If you don't follow instructions, it's kind of your fault for what happens. And that has to with anything.

I've used it and it works. I quit using it because I realized algae is good to have. The only issue is where the algae is growing for me.

 

[jcolliii]

Not trying to defend Vibrant here, but they do have instructions for dosing correctly. If you don't follow instructions, it's kind of your fault for what happens. And that has to with anything.

I've used it and it works. I quit using it because I realized algae is good to have. The only issue is where the algae is growing for me.

Dosing instructions for a pesticide are regulated by the EPA - hence the warning label on API Algaefix. Ever see a warning label on a bacterial supplement?